I'd think it should be based on hospital beds and ICU capacity. If we get too close to filling those spots we need to up the restrictions. And not once we hit 100% cuz then it's too late. We can see the horrible situations that occur in other countries once hospitals are full and doctors have to choose between 2 Covid sufferers and decided who gets a chance to live. Everything we have done and should be doing is about keeping our hospitals under-capacity.
added: wait? what thread are we in?
It fits, we're talking bout US COVID policy.
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Is the plan to lockdown? Governor Newsom in California is getting blasted for his max 3 families for max 2 hours Thanksgiving rule.
Maybe it's time to put a sock in it until after the election. This isn't a chinese/korean drama thread. There's already enough non-manufactured drama in here.
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Last edited by Johnny Makarov; 10-29-2020 at 12:06 PM.
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I can't help but think that this is how it would play out if you had Buttieg vs Trump on a debate floor.
Mayor Pete would just eat the orange moron alive.
Pete would have been an awful choice. He might be hated even more by progressives than Biden is, he's despised by black voters (especially younger black voters), he's a non-entity with latino voters, and he has none of the blue-collar appeal that Biden does.
Has shutdowns really worked anywhere though. Western societies went to option 3 and Canada is seeing record highs this week. And Asia, they lockdown people in buildings, because they can, and that worked but that's pretty tough to see succeeding here without massive protests. Heck people are even protesting masks, let alone locking them in buildings.
I'm getting to the point where it's November soon and we have to start living with this things and be as safe as possible. I've worked everyday of the pandemic in the the office and I was a pro-shutdown person back in March.
Ontario released information today showing that when bars, restaurants and gyms are closed, the cases drop after a couple of weeks. Not sure how scientific the research is.
As cold as it sounds, eventually it is going to come down to money. Is the cost of shut-downs more than the costs of burdening the health care system. I don't like it, but it's what humans do. Time is pretty paramount at this stage of the pandemic. The strategy has been to use stop-gap measures until vaccines and treatments remove the problem, but not enough effort has been put forward to deal with COVID as a new long-term reality.
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Yeah, of the final eight or so, Buttigieg was one of the worst possible choices in terms of electoral math. Would have been an okay VP pick in some years, but not this one. I do think they should have used him a bit more in a talking head spokesperson role though. He's excellent at that.
__________________ "The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
Pete would have been an awful choice. He might be hated even more by progressives than Biden is, he's despised by black voters (especially younger black voters), he's a non-entity with latino voters, and he has none of the blue-collar appeal that Biden does.
Odds he ends up working at the Lincoln Project channel/media company that grows out of this? They’re totally going to position themselves as Fox News Lite. Bringing back decorum one corporate tax cut at a time.
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Pete would have been an awful choice. He might be hated even more by progressives than Biden is, he's despised by black voters (especially younger black voters), he's a non-entity with latino voters, and he has none of the blue-collar appeal that Biden does.
Oh for sure. There is no way I would have wanted him as the democratic nominee. But his speaking level is off the charts amazing. Like Obama levels!
__________________ Peter12 "I'm no Trump fan but he is smarter than most if not everyone in this thread. ”
There is no really good covid plan going forward for the States anymore. The best approach is a lock down and mandatory mask use, which takes a big short-term economic hit in exchange for starting recovery sooner. The US already took a big economic hit and is more fragile than ever now, but because they didn't shut down the virus is also going wild. Taking the appropriate course of locking down at this point will be truly devastating for many more people and businesses, but without shutting down the pain is just going to be drawn out longer. Trump has largely restricted the options going forward in a way that is fully counting on the vaccine and makes it harder to deal with the virus effectively without pushing loads more people over the edge into economic disaster.
If you wear masks in all public spaces and maintain good distancing and hand washing practices, the odds of getting Covid as an individual fall through the floor.
It’s been clear for a while that proper mask use is about the only way to avoid another shutdown. Who doesn’t make that deal. It’s Mangiapane-for-Laine-1-for-1 obvious.
Simply having a unified message about what to do goes a long way. When President Biden, armed with both houses of Congress, advises a measure, none of the Republicans left standing are going to have the will to fight them.
This Covid debacle is entirely Donald Trump’s fault. President Mitch McConnell would’ve handled it better.
President Mitch McConnell wouldn’t be up at 3am having a tantrum because the deadly plague is getting more press coverage.
President Mitch McConnell would have understood that he could get the thing and die, so he’d be setting an example on masks and distancing - remember, he didn’t go to the super spreader ceremony in the Rose Garden.
Having a plan, period, is a start. Telling people the truth is important. It matters.
Trudeau, Ford, Kenney, Say what you will about them, they haven’t been lying to the people about the nature of this threat for eight months. They’ve been front and centre most every day to answer questions that deal directly with the health and safety of everyone they’re responsible for. They may disagree with the measures to address the problem, but they don’t waste time disputing a problem exists.
America has allowed itself to tolerate willful ignorance in the guise of freedom, and they’re paying the price. The solution, at its core, is to stop being willfully blind.
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I'm surprised this hasn't gone viral. The South Park guys and Peter Serafinowicz teamed up to bring us Sassy Justice!
The Ivanka, Kushner and Zuckerberg bits are hilarious. The deepfakes in this are actually pretty amazing, especially Tom Cruise. Couldn't even tell it wasn't him.
I'm more surprised it hasn't been taken down. I'm mean, it not having been taken down also drives home their point, but it's still surprising that such extensive use of deep fakery hasn't been removed for some tos violation.
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"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
Yes. States that have gone into lock-down have got through the virus much better than those who have not. When you look at the efficacy of isolation and specific controls on public interactions, it has been a huge success. The problem is that the population in states is not homogeneous, so there are those who are going to listen to their information bubble and ignore guidance from the state or municipality. All it takes is one event to cause a flare up and we are right back where we started, simply because a segment of the population does not listen. Their ignorance puts us all at risk.
Sure, it's obvious government can't enforce those bans because it's impossible, but that's not to say the government can't issue them. And yes, it's your choice to follow those guidelines or ignore them, but you should have enough sense to know that your elderly parent is vulnerable and should be protected. Not sure why that's so hard to understand for some groups.
And of course we can't stop Halloween from happening, but again, common sense.
At least if governments are enacting some sort of plan, it's still a plan (whether you agree with it or not), rather than no plan at all.
This is the kind of increasingly aggressive and standoffish responses that are becoming far too common.
I think most people can agree that elderly parents are vulnerable and need to be protected.
However, I also think that there are probably a fairly large number of people who, while agreeing with the first point, don't think it's really necessary to limit her visit to 2 hours if she comes over for Thanksgiving.
Pete would have been an awful choice. He might be hated even more by progressives than Biden is, he's despised by black voters (especially younger black voters), he's a non-entity with latino voters, and he has none of the blue-collar appeal that Biden does.
And all of those numbers are turning around because of the exposure he has received as a surrogate. This is really hard for the Bernie Bros set to understand, but the vast majority of America is like Pete, except for the sexual orientation. He speaks to the very values that ALL Americans embrace. He breaks down the barrier between the conservatives and the liberals and finds common ground. Pete will be in Biden's cabinet in some capacity, and that will only elevate his stature in the future. He's a guy that should be groomed for Harris' VP in 2024 (or sooner). He has a very bright future in American politics for all the right reasons.
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And all of those numbers are turning around because of the exposure he has received as a surrogate. This is really hard for the Bernie Bros set to understand, but the vast majority of America is like Pete, except for the sexual orientation. He speaks to the very values that ALL Americans embrace. He breaks down the barrier between the conservatives and the liberals and finds common ground. Pete will be in Biden's cabinet in some capacity, and that will only elevate his stature in the future. He's a guy that should be groomed for Harris' VP in 2024 (or sooner). He has a very bright future in American politics for all the right reasons.
Not really. Old, white liberals love him, so I'm not surprised he's right up your alley, but most of the under 40 crowds sees him for the shameless corporate shill that he is.
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If you wear masks in all public spaces and maintain good distancing and hand washing practices, the odds of getting Covid as an individual fall through the floor.
It’s been clear for a while that proper mask use is about the only way to avoid another shutdown. Who doesn’t make that deal. It’s Mangiapane-for-Laine-1-for-1 obvious.
Simply having a unified message about what to do goes a long way. When President Biden, armed with both houses of Congress, advises a measure, none of the Republicans left standing are going to have the will to fight them.
This Covid debacle is entirely Donald Trump’s fault. President Mitch McConnell would’ve handled it better.
President Mitch McConnell wouldn’t be up at 3am having a tantrum because the deadly plague is getting more press coverage.
President Mitch McConnell would have understood that he could get the thing and die, so he’d be setting an example on masks and distancing - remember, he didn’t go to the super spreader ceremony in the Rose Garden.
Having a plan, period, is a start. Telling people the truth is important. It matters.
Trudeau, Ford, Kenney, Say what you will about them, they haven’t been lying to the people about the nature of this threat for eight months. They’ve been front and centre most every day to answer questions that deal directly with the health and safety of everyone they’re responsible for. They may disagree with the measures to address the problem, but they don’t waste time disputing a problem exists.
America has allowed itself to tolerate willful ignorance in the guise of freedom, and they’re paying the price. The solution, at its core, is to stop being willfully blind.
My post wasn't in defense of Trump. I'm just saying there is no good way out of this going forward for the states until the vaccine comes out (assuming it's out by early next year). The virus is already widespread, the economy has already been beaten up and Trump is still in office until Jan 20th in the best-case scenario.
Wearing masks is a no-brainer, but by the time Biden gets in the economy will be even more devastated than it is now and the virus could be more widespread. As a result of the poor leadership up to now, the US is likely living with covid until the vaccine is out regardless of the measures Biden may eventually be able to take. I believe the response will be better with the Dems in office, but their hands will also be pretty tied by how dire the conditions of the country are becoming. Hopefully a fourth wave isn't starting by the time a more responsive and responsible government has an opportunity to make decisions.
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"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
Not really. Old, white liberals love him, so I'm not surprised he's right up your alley, but most of the under 40 crowds sees him for the shameless corporate shill that he is.
I think you need to get something through your head. "Progressives" are a very small segment of the population in the United States, and they hold little to no sway in politics. They are viewed as extremists and often branded with the socialist tag, making them pretty much useless on the national stage. Ever wonder why AOC and Bernie have been kept off the national stage for Biden and Harris? Because they are poison pills to the vast majority of the nation. Can we get to a place where those voices matter and will become accepted? Hopefully. But it is going to take years of work to make that happen, and it starts with the "corporate shills" like Pete. You don't go from a fascist authoritarian to a socialist without the country imploding. Change takes time and moving from a very right of center position back to even a centrist perspective is going to take years and a number of cycles. A leftist perspective is not even in the wings at this point, not until it is socialized and people accept the term being used.
This is the kind of increasingly aggressive and standoffish responses that are becoming far too common.
I think most people can agree that elderly parents are vulnerable and need to be protected.
However, I also think that there are probably a fairly large number of people who, while agreeing with the first point, don't think it's really necessary to limit her visit to 2 hours if she comes over for Thanksgiving.
I'm not advocating for a strict rule to follow the California mandate, I said as much on my second response to Girlysports, but I do think the California order is trying to accomplish something else here. Will people willfully follow the 2 hr requirement? Probably not, but that's really not the point. The point here is to remind the general public to take precaution because of the rising cases. So why didn't California just tell people to exercise extra caution since cases are on the rise again? Because people won't take it seriously unless an order is in place.
I honestly have no idea why California decided to throw in the 2 hr rule (how do you even enforce that?), maybe due to some conclusion after consulting with medical professionals, I have no idea. To me, the order is suppose to spur people into action, and to exercise common sense.
Last edited by TheyCallMeBruce; 10-29-2020 at 12:56 PM.
A leftist perspective is not even in the wings at this point, not until it is socialized and people accept the term being used.
This has nothing to do with leftists. Pete's numbers with younger voters are atrocious. That may not mean much this cycle, but in 4-8 years, when those people make up the bulk of the voting population, it almost certainly will.
I get the old adage that voters tend to become more conservative as they age, but that's usually due to the fact that people tend to accrue more wealth and better lifestyles as they age and are thus more motivated to hold onto the status quo. That's not really happening for many millennials and zoomers, and unless that changes substantially under a Biden administration, we're likely to see even more aggressive populism from both the left and the right in coming years and a much stronger backlash against the Mayor Petes of both parties.
