Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[Fuzz]

I need to wait for some snow mounds to melt before I order a sign or 15.

[Fuzz]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...796780?cmp=rss

UCP announces they are spending a bunch on parks, to re-open the campgrounds they themselves closed.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

No, and even if there was, you're not allowed to ask for it. Don't you remember the last time someone asked for actual evidence to back up such a claim?

I legit lol'd on this. Thanks for that!

[Slava]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

No, and even if there was, you're not allowed to ask for it. Don't you remember the last time someone asked for actual evidence to back up such a claim?

Well we have had this discussion a million times and there’s no resolution. It’s pointless, because I say “look here’s this brutal track record” and then NDP apologists say “yeah, but the UCP!”

So, while my point is that there’s no good choice for a lot of voters, it’s a pointless “whataboutism” discussion. You’ll have to forgive me if I’m not super interested in that.

[Alpha_Q]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well we have had this discussion a million times and there’s no resolution. It’s pointless, because I say “look here’s this brutal track record” and then NDP apologists say “yeah, but the UCP!”

So, while my point is that there’s no good choice for a lot of voters, it’s a pointless “whataboutism” discussion. You’ll have to forgive me if I’m not super interested in that.

I think people would like to see the "brutal track record." I'm sorry, but when you folllow an invitation to back up your assertions with "I'm leaving" it's simply not going to get much support let alone respect.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well we have had this discussion a million times and there’s no resolution. It’s pointless, because I say “look here’s this brutal track record” and then NDP apologists say “yeah, but the UCP!”

So, while my point is that there’s no good choice for a lot of voters, it’s a pointless “whataboutism” discussion. You’ll have to forgive me if I’m not super interested in that.

In fairness, it hasn’t just been “yeah, but the UCP!” it’s also been accurately pointing out that your definition of “brutal” is so all-encompassing that you’d actually have a difficult time finding a provincial government across the country in the last 20 years that didn’t also qualify as “brutal.”

The ANDP is a pretty good centrist/left of centre option, all things considered, and most if not all of their main issues could be chalked up to a fairly “green” party taking over from a conservative dynasty.

I think you’ve been given some pretty convincing arguments over the last few years as to why your opinion doesn’t reflect reality, but you keep sharing the same opinion as you’ve obviously found none of the facts people have offered you interesting or worth considering.

Boiling it down to a pointless case of whataboutism not only isn’t fair, it isn’t even true. Just because you haven’t ever taken interest in the point doesn’t mean it’s pointless.

[timun]

Yeah but the NDP BoRrOweD FoR OPerATioNs, WHIch jUst tO rEItErAtE Is baSIcaLlY A CarDINaL SiN IN fINanCe!

[Slava]

Well I suppose it comes down to what you consider as being fiscally competent. The NDP oversaw a debt that went from ~10-11bn to ~$71bn. They had no possible way to pay that back, and in the face of credit downgrades they were unflinching in their spending. They didn’t cut public service at all, but continued to expand it. And, lest we want to forget and think they had no option, they did in fact have rising energy prices through the past two years of their term. The could’ve taken actions to reduce this deficit and S&P told them they should either cut spending and/or raise taxes.

And it’s kind of sadly amusing to remember Joe Ceci being warned a month ahead that the rating agencies were going to cut the credit rating and him denying it. Then, lo and behold the credit rating was knocked down two notches. That’s not political, it’s independent rating agencies with concrete actions. And just to reiterate, this is well after the oil price bottom in 2015…this is 2017 when the province was growing and leading growth in the country.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by timun

Yeah but the NDP BoRrOweD FoR OPerATioNs, WHIch jUst tO rEItErAtE Is baSIcaLlY A CarDINaL SiN IN fINanCe!

Yeah, we’ve been over that. I know you’re being facetious, but it’s a fact.

[Vedder]

Originally Posted by timun

Yeah but the NDP BoRrOweD FoR OPerATioNs, WHIch jUst tO rEItErAtE Is baSIcaLlY A CarDINaL SiN IN fINanCe!

I mean, borrowing to fund your operating budget is stupid. Not sure why you’re mocking those who criticize it.

[opendoor]

What was the alternative? Unilaterally slash government expenditures by 20% overnight to match the drop in revenue from 2014?

The real problem is the province setting itself up so it's constantly using oil royalties to subsidize everything so a drop in commodity prices pushes it into a deficit.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by opendoor

What was the alternative? Unilaterally slash government expenditures by 20% overnight to match the drop in revenue from 2014?

The real problem is the province setting itself up so it's constantly using oil royalties to subsidize everything so a drop in commodity prices pushes it into a deficit.

Yeah and I see that argument. But my issue is, they made it their policy to not even try. Ceci was told by ratings agencies that to maintain the credit rating they should close the gap and they elected not to.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Vedder

I mean, borrowing to fund your operating budget is stupid. Not sure why you’re mocking those who criticize it.

Out of curiosity, can you provide a list of the provinces that haven’t borrowed to fund operations in the last 10-15 years?

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Slava

Yeah and I see that argument. But my issue is, they made it their policy to not even try. Ceci was told by ratings agencies that to maintain the credit rating they should close the gap and they elected not to.

Your aware that the current UCP budget spends 3% less than the NDP budget plus inflation plus pop growth right? Is that difference meaningful to you?

[Minnie]

Out of curiosity, in addition to the $80M the UCP dropped on useless weak ass pretend Tylenol, can someone add up where we're sitting at in terms of the money boondoggles from the UCP between Kenney & Smith? It has to be in the multi-billions by now. Been thinking about what that figure is sitting at but have been too ridiculous busy to sit at the computer long enough to research.

Off the top of my head, $4.3B to O&G companies that pocketed it & scarpered, $7B plus investment in the pipeline that will never be - that's just what I recall from Kenney right now, but I'm pretty sure there was more. Oh, then there's the lawsuit against the US govt which will cost the province how much?

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Minnie

Out of curiosity, in addition to the $80M the UCP dropped on useless weak ass pretend Tylenol, can someone add up where we're sitting at in terms of the money boondoggles from the UCP between Kenney & Smith? It has to be in the multi-billions by now. Been thinking about what that figure is sitting at but have been too ridiculous busy to sit at the computer long enough to research.

Off the top of my head, $4.3B to O&G companies that pocketed it & scarpered, $7B plus investment in the pipeline that will never be - that's just what I recall from Kenney right now, but I'm pretty sure there was more. Oh, then there's the lawsuit against the US govt which will cost the province how much?

Giving oil companies a $20B tax credit to clean up wells when they are making bank and a ton of them are not paying their taxes.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by GGG

Your aware that the current UCP budget spends 3% less than the NDP budget plus inflation plus pop growth right? Is that difference meaningful to you?

Well again, I’m not voting for these clowns, and not planning on defending this regime. But, if you’re convinced the NDP nailed the fiscal part of their term it’s great news! They have a good shot to get back in! Honestly, all they need to do is buy some ad time and run clips from the phone call, clips from the now resigned Lethbridge West candidate and they should be off to the races.

[Izzle]

YeS, BuT tHeY wErE CaPiTuL sPeNDzzzzz

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by Vedder

I mean, borrowing to fund your operating budget is stupid. Not sure why you’re mocking those who criticize it.

I mostly mock it because Keynesian economics have proven to work and that includes borrowing for your operating budget. Deficit spending during a downturn isn't stupid, it is sound economic policy that was the way of the world before Neoliberalism took hold and everyone thought we could trickle-down to prosperity.. and look where that has gotten us.

[timun]

Originally Posted by Vedder

I mean, borrowing to fund your operating budget is stupid. Not sure why you’re mocking those who criticize it.

The sheer ####ing hypocrisy is why I'm mocking it. Slava simultaneous absolutely cannot forgive the NDP for their "cardinal sin", yet nary a peep about the financial mismanagement of the UCP government other than a sheepish "well, I'm not planning to vote for them either...".

Yes, the provincial debt did go up a lot under the NDP. They racked up $32B in budget deficits over four years.

The UCP racked up another $29.1B in their first two years. And they were forecasting another $18.2B deficit in fiscal year 2021-22, which they only managed to avoid because revenues ended up being $25B more than forecast through essentially no creditable action on their part whatsoever! And now this year they're forecasting an almost $12.3B surplus because—surprise!—resource revenue is forecast $22.7B higher than it ever was in any given year 2015-2019.

Just so we're all clear on what actually happened (all figures in millions of $):




Can we finally put this bull####-####ing-narrative that "the NDP are fiscally incompetent" to rest? 2019-2020 was self-inflicted stupidity on a scale far worse than the NDP EVER did.