Israel declares war on Hamas

[carmenshoes]

It's the blockage of supplies, good, water and gas a foul of international law by the Israeli Government?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Let's merge it with the grizzly thread.

Hey! That thread is just fine thank you very much!

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Of course there's rage, we haven't seen this type of barbarism since ISIS or the Japanese invading China so the solution is likely on par of what happened to them.

What's your solution?

Crickets…

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Of course there's rage, we haven't seen this type of barbarism since ISIS or the Japanese invading China so the solution is likely on par of what happened to them.

What's your solution?

I thought Jared Kushner's job was to broker Peace in the Middle East? Where is that assclown now??

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://twitter.com/user/status/1712150052011942279


oops.

Israel Defensive Force had shocking THREE false alarms this evening. First one was about alleged infiltration from Lebanon. Second was about alleged attack of drones with a map of all north being in red. Third was a human error that send command to go to shelters to the whole country. All three were genuine IDF messages, not fake twitter news. Yet all three were false. My kids went to shelter twice tonight, for the first times in their lives, and so was I. Israelis are shocked by the false alert rates and, together with failure to anticipate initial attack by Hamas, this generated a lot of talk about how Israel army may not be as great, as we thought it is.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by carmenshoes

It's the blockage of supplies, good, water and gas a foul of international law by the Israeli Government?

No because Gaza has a border with Egypt, that it is closed is irrelevant from a legal point, not that international law means anything anyway, no countries care about 'international law' it's just a term the well meaning but hopelessly out of touch bandy about

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

This account is well known for publishing disinfo and fake stories indiscriminately; in fact I wouldn't rely on info from Twitter this point in any instance, but definitely not from this account.

I have no clue, who this guy on Twitter is, but let me clarify the map, where you see whole north in red. Red icons indicate areas where alarm is raised. It does not necessarily mean, that the actual strike is happening. Just that IDF rings the alarm. This particular tweet was correct - there was indeed the alarm in the whole Israel north. The alarm was later called false by IDF.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Israel Defensive Force has shocking THREE false alarms this evening. First one was about alleged infiltration from Lebanon. Second was about alleged attack of drones with a map of all north being in red. Third was a human error that send command to go to shelters to the whole country. All three were genuine IDF messages, not fake twitter news. Yet all three were false. My kids went to shelter twice tonight, for the first times in their lives, abs so was I. Israelis are shocked by the false alert rates and, together with failure to anticipate initial attack by Hamas, this generated a lot of talk about how Israel army may not be as great, as we thought it is.

Well...that may be part of the plan.

I am no expert, by any means, my laymen's research and speaking with ex-Israeli Military members has largely shaped my view of the Israeli army as one that is exceedingly well trained, equipped and prepared.

As one might expect for a people and a nation that is essentially under constant threat.

But when this all happened and the Israelis were 'taken by surprise' that kind of shocked me.

You would think they would be prepared for an eventuality like this, based on their reputation.

But maybe they've been sitting on that reputation for a little too long and things got lax.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by _Q_

I don't think any evidence has been presented that shows any of these atrocities happening. But even if we are to accept that this is true, what is your solution?

Enough with the rage and lay it out. After fighting stops, and all parties are at the table. What is the solution to all this?

In truth the only real solution at this point is the absolute and total defeat, along with catastrophic loss of life and complete removal of the population of one side or the other, either Israel ceases to exist or Gaza.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Locke

I thought Jared Kushner's job was to broker Peace in the Middle East? Where is that assclown now??

Enjoying his $2 billion from the Saudi's

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Israel Defensive Force had shocking THREE false alarms this evening. First one was about alleged infiltration from Lebanon. Second was about alleged attack of drones with a map of all north being in red. Third was a human error that send command to go to shelters to the whole country. All three were genuine IDF messages, not fake twitter news. Yet all three were false. My kids went to shelter twice tonight, for the first times in their lives, and so was I. Israelis are shocked by the false alert rates and, together with failure to anticipate initial attack by Hamas, this generated a lot of talk about how Israel army may not be as great, as we thought it is.

Im sure it's already been said, but my thoughts are with you and your family... Leaving your home in Russia and now dealing with this in Israel all within 2 years is not a reality I can even imagine. All the best.

[Azure]

I for one appreciate the fact that the mods try to keep this open because of the importance of this discussion.

I read a lot of other stuff online. Reddit, Twitter, news sites, etc. But CP is the only place where I come to discuss topics, and often to read what specific posters have to say.

That being said, it is sad to me how even killing babies doesn't change one's perspective.

But then again, even the Nazi's tried to hide the fact that they were exterminating Jews. Nowadays you can kill Jewish and other Israeli babies and people cheer for you in the streets of Canada.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by carmenshoes

It's the blockage of supplies, good, water and gas a foul of international law by the Israeli Government?

International law means very little after a declaration of war

[Pointman]

I decided to educate myself on the matter of international laws and war crimes. I admit, before I didn't really have good understanding of it except for gut feeling of what is wrong thing to do on the battlefield. But when I went on to read Geneva conventions, it really reads like a set of rules of some Knight's tournament or something. Apparently not having your weapon clearly visible is a war crime (Article 4(a)(2)). Not have a sign "clearly visible from the distance" is a war crime. Hell, I'm surprised the enemies are not obligated to discuss their uniforms before the event, just to make sure that their colors are distinct enough, like they do in soccer. I understand, that the war in itself is crime. But I gotta say that the whole "war crime" phrase means a lot less to me now. I guess I will continue to go with my gut feelings of what is right and what is wrong.


https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/war-and-...onventions.htm

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Azure

I for one appreciate the fact that the mods try to keep this open because of the importance of this discussion.

I read a lot of other stuff online. Reddit, Twitter, news sites, etc. But CP is the only place where I come to discuss topics, and often to read what specific posters have to say.

That being said, it is sad to me how even killing babies doesn't change one's perspective.

But then again, even the Nazi's tried to hide the fact that they were exterminating Jews. Nowadays you can kill Jewish and other Israeli babies and people cheer for you in the streets of Canada.

I find the fact that Hamas slaughtered babies horrific, but I am confused why people don't think Isreali bombing isn't killing babies?

Or even US bombing Bagdad, no babies were killed then?


I think it is Telal Asad who wrote an article on the subjective ways the west moralizes killing. Beheading people is somehow worse than blowing them up at a distance.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Israelis are shocked by the false alert rates and, together with failure to anticipate initial attack by Hamas, this generated a lot of talk about how Israel army may not be as great, as we thought it is.

I ran across a pretty scathing article written by former Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami which touches on that. Though his position is that it's more poor government (both in terms of handling this whole issue and their focus on the West Bank/settlements) rather than the army itself being lacking:

Sooner or later, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s destructive political magic, which has kept him in power for 15 years, was bound to usher in a major tragedy. A year ago, he formed the most radical and incompetent government in Israel’s history. Not to worry, he assured his critics, ‘I’ll have two hands firmly on the steering wheel.’

But by ruling out any political process in Palestine and boldly asserting, in his government’s binding guidelines, that ‘the Jewish people have an exclusive and inalienable right to all parts of the Land of Israel’, Netanyahu’s fanatical government made bloodshed inevitable.

Admittedly, blood flowed in Palestine even when peace-seekers such as Yitzhak Rabin and Ehud Barak were in office. But Netanyahu recklessly invited violence by paying his coalition partners any price for their support. He let them grab Palestinian lands, expand illegal settlements, scorn Muslim sensibilities regarding the sacred mosques on the Temple Mount, and promote suicidal delusions about the reconstruction of the biblical Temple in Jerusalem (in itself a recipe for what could be the mother of all Muslim jihads). Meanwhile, he also sidelined the more moderate Palestinian leadership of Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank, effectively beefing up the radical Hamas in Gaza.

Many have expressed surprise that Hamas so easily penetrated Israel’s defences along the border with Gaza. But there were no such defences. When Hamas began slaughtering hundreds of defenceless civilians, Israel’s glorious army was mostly deployed elsewhere. Many were assigned to the West Bank to protect religious settlers in clashes (sometimes initiated by the settlers themselves) with local Palestinians, and in festivals around invented holy shrines. For long hours, desperate men and women cried for help, and the strongest army in the Middle East was nowhere to be seen.

The assumption was always that Gaza was not a vital priority. The underground wall of sensors and fortified concrete that Israel has built around the enclave was supposed to block the tunnels through which Hamas tried in the past to penetrate Israeli border villages. It was of no use. Hamas militias simply stormed the fences on the surface.

There was no intelligence about Hamas’s intentions, either. The ‘start-up nation’, whose sophisticated cyber units can detect the movement of a leaf in a tree in an Iranian base in Syria, knew nothing of Hamas’s plans. Israel’s obsession with Iran’s possible nuclear breakout and its internal security services’ focus on the occupied West Bank partly explain this negligence.

https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/hu...sis-in-israel/

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I find the fact that Hamas slaughtered babies horrific, but I am confused why people don't think Isreali bombing isn't killing babies?

Or even US bombing Bagdad, no babies were killed then?


I think it is Telal Asad who wrote an article on the subjective ways the west moralizes killing. Beheading people is somehow worse than blowing them up at a distance.

yes kind of is in truth

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Azure

I for one appreciate the fact that the mods try to keep this open because of the importance of this discussion.

I read a lot of other stuff online. Reddit, Twitter, news sites, etc. But CP is the only place where I come to discuss topics, and often to read what specific posters have to say.

That being said, it is sad to me how even killing babies doesn't change one's perspective.

But then again, even the Nazi's tried to hide the fact that they were exterminating Jews. Nowadays you can kill Jewish and other Israeli babies and people cheer for you in the streets of Canada.

This isn’t really unique to this situation. Many people cheered on the US while countless children and babies were victims of war-related aggression during the war on terror. Countless Palestinian children and babies have been killed as a direct result of Israeli responses and people cheer that on.

Is cheering this on wrong? Of course. Is killing babies horrific? Of course. You can argue there is something inherently more “wrong” in killing a baby through an act of terror than an act of war, but it is justified in all sorts of ways, regardless of who is pulling the trigger, so it should hardly be surprising.

EDIT: basically what IronMaiden said

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I find the fact that Hamas slaughtered babies horrific, but I am confused why people don't think Isreali bombing isn't killing babies?

Or even US bombing Bagdad, no babies were killed then?

There is the morbid double standard that we allow for because of what is expected. Bombing is a natural part of war and while bombing civilians is always frowned upon it will never stop and will be tacitly accepted. Kill them up close and film it? The casualties may be the same but it will always be viewed as significantly worse.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

International law means very little after a declaration of war

That's certainly not true, particularly when Israel is dependent on US support. The US (particularly under Democratic presidents) is very cognizant of how its perceived around the world, particularly in light of China's overtures towards spreading their influence.