I'm just not sure how you can look at the history of systemic cover-ups of sexual assault (Penn State, the military, Catholic Church, university campuses, residential schools, etc., etc.) who is at risk (socioeconomic factors are huge), and not come to the conclusion that culture plays a huge role.
EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is, even if you think culture doesn't play a role in creating predators, it plays a huge role in allowing them to succeed on a consistent basis.
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In the case of Roosh V, and to the detriment of society itself, yes. In fact, a small band of his followers are planning a "meeting" in Calgary for this Saturday.
I finished reading this thread, popped over to FB, and one of the first things to cross my feed was a link to an article about Roosh V's planned "tour". To those who don't know him, this is a quick, brief primer on his thoughts. Should take you about 5 minutes to read.
But the highlight? Roosh V is the guy who is advocating legalizing rape while on private property, to teach women to better protect themselves from rape, to take responsibility for their actions, and to 'care about' being raped.
The problem with this case is Jian is going to get off on technicalities. So her head was smooshed into the window, not smashed. Difference? Not much, but keep picking away at these things and the next thing you know he will get off.
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Uhhh...really? You've never heard of Roosh V, who has made a living out of just that and advocating for rape to be legalized? You've never heard dudes bragging about taking drunk girls home? Never seen guys at bars grabbing girls' asses?
I've also seen men and women both deny another person's SA experiences. Hell, look at every time a celebrity or pro athlete is accused. I'm not saying that people should automatically assume the person is guilty, but the fact that the opposite of that happens and we immediately see a bunch of people start calling the accuser a lying, money-grubbing whore tells me that there's still a lot of work to be done,.
I don't particularly like Roosh V, but I think we ought to ensure accuracy when discussing controversial topics.
Roosh V advocates for legalizing rape in the same way that Jonathon Swift advocates for eating children.
RooshV is mostly vilified by the SJW set because he pushes back against the concept of "rape culture" - a position which is becoming far less controversial than it used to be.
I don't particularly like Roosh V, but I think we ought to ensure accuracy when discussing controversial topics.
Roosh V advocates for legalizing rape in the same way that Jonathon Swift advocates for eating children.
RooshV is mostly vilified by the SJW set because he pushes back against the concept of "rape culture" - a position which is becoming far less controversial than it used to be.
Eh?
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I thought about this problem and am sure I have the solution: make rape legal if done on private property. I propose that we make the violent taking of a woman not punishable by law when done off public grounds.
I mean some probably do but it's not common, but my point was that people brag about acts that essentially constitute sexual assault because we as a culture are accepting of these acts when they're put in certain terms, and that needs to change.
We as a culture? When I hear that, it implies that other cultures are different, better. So name them. And if this isn't confined to our culture, maybe we should recognize it as a crime pervasive in our species.
This is what I'm driving at. If the levels of sexual predation in modern North America are peculiarly high, then let's see some empirical evidence proving it. And if they aren't - and I've seen convincing data that this is one of the safest times and places to be a women in history - then maybe we need to recognize that. Not to absolve predators and their crimes, but to recognize what we've done right in the last 60 years to protect victims and make the powerful accountable. And to understand that culture isn't the only force at work here.
But that's the problem with the modern cultural left - they believe culture is everything. There's no room for innate biological traits and the difficult questions biology raises about our behaviour. So all ills must have a source in culture, and all terrible behaviour must have it's roots in the institutions of power. Let's be honest and call it the patriarchy.
It's an attractive dogma, and it's pervasive in academia and the media. But science is making it increasingly difficult for anyone to believe we can change everything by changing culture.
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Originally Posted by rubecube
I'm just not sure how you can look at the history of systemic cover-ups of sexual assault (Penn State, the military, Catholic Church, university campuses, residential schools, etc., etc.) who is at risk (socioeconomic factors are huge), and not come to the conclusion that culture plays a huge role.
Institutions protect their members, yes. But are they especially liable to protect their members from sexual crimes? Don't they also protect their members from other crimes and scandals?
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We as a culture? When I hear that, it implies that other cultures are different, better. So name them. And if this isn't confined to our culture, maybe we should recognize it as a crime pervasive in our species.
Nah, I definitely disagree with this. This is laurel-resting. Just because there aren't cultures that are better on this subject - or, more accurately, just because there are many that are far worse - does not mean anything substantive in this discussion.
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This is what I'm driving at. If the levels of sexual predation in modern North America are peculiarly high, then let's see some empirical evidence proving it. And if they aren't - and I've seen convincing data that this is one of the safest times and places to be a women in history - then maybe we need to recognize that. Not to absolve predators and their crimes, but to recognize what we've done right in the last 60 years to protect victims and make the powerful accountable. And to understand that culture isn't the only force at work here.
I think that the fact that "this is one of the safest times and places to be a woman in history" would be self-evident. Of course, that doesn't mean we can't try to make them safer times, and we should keep striving. On the other hand, I think one of the issues is hyperbolizing, as you seem to suggest Rube does (and he does, a bit) about things being horrific for women in this area.
This is just general catastrophization that's become pretty common on a number of topics. It's essentially a matter of "unless we make this into a world-ending crisis no one will pay attention to us, so we can fudge the numbers a bit to make things seem worse because the end goal - reducing rape - is clearly a good one". The ethics of that behaviour are a totally different discussion.
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But that's the problem with the modern cultural left - they believe culture is everything. There's no room for innate biological traits and the difficult questions biology raises about our behaviour. So all ills must have a source in culture, and all terrible behaviour must have it's roots in the institutions of power. Let's be honest and call it the patriarchy.
It's an attractive dogma, and it's pervasive in academia and the media. But science is making it increasingly difficult for anyone to believe we can change everything by changing culture.
But surely you agree with Rube that at least some of this is cultural? And as a separate issue, and probably even LESS controversial, that these problems can at least have cultural solutions? I mean, we overcome lots of problems that are sourced from our imperfectly evolved simian brains by cultural means. If not, I'd be interested to hear why you're pessimistic about this.
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If dude and other PUAs are able to make a living off of giving seminars where they basically teach other dudes methods of coercion and manipulation to get women to sleep with them, and their customers know ahead of time that this is Roosh's stance, I'd say it has a level of support that is unacceptable.
PUA's in general are a bit of a complex subject, from where I sit. I think any sane person is probably immediately aghast at the suggestion that rape should be legal anywhere. However, the limits of what's ethical when it comes to "manipulating" women to have sex with you are pretty murky - for example, does lying about your income count? How about lying about whether you really like your date's glasses? Or deliberately trying to come off as knowing more about movies than you do? Or, female-specific, how about using eyeshadow? Obviously these are fine, so there's some amount of manipulation that qualifies.
You get some absolutely batcrap crazy positions taken on this stuff, too, which drives up cynicism... see:
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Nah, I definitely disagree with this. This is laurel-resting. Just because there aren't cultures that are better on this subject - or, more accurately, just because there are many that are far worse - does not mean anything substantive in this discussion.
This seems to happen in most of these discussions I have with Cliff. He trots the old "Well look at how much better we are than other cultures" argument. And it's weird to me because it's one that neither I nor anyone I know and respect actually tries to argue. Yes, we are absolutely ahead of a lot of places in the world when it comes to human rights, it's not time to kick back and crack a cold one. Further to this, my sphere of influence is incredibly limited even among my own country, group of friends, whatever. I have almost no ability to influence how other cultures behave, and it'd be completely arrogant of me to think that I do.
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I think that the fact that "this is one of the safest times and places to be a woman in history" would be self-evident. Of course, that doesn't mean we can't try to make them safer times, and we should keep striving. On the other hand, I think one of the issues is hyperbolizing, as you seem to suggest Rube does (and he does, a bit) about things being horrific for women in this area.
This is just general catastrophization that's become pretty common on a number of topics. It's essentially a matter of "unless we make this into a world-ending crisis no one will pay attention to us, so we can fudge the numbers a bit to make things seem worse because the end goal - reducing rape - is clearly a good one". The ethics of that behaviour are a totally different discussion.
I think it's more personal experience in the area that leaves me a bit raw and quick to escalate on the subject.
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But surely you agree with Rube that at least some of this is cultural? And as a separate issue, and probably even LESS controversial, that these problems can at least have cultural solutions? I mean, we overcome lots of problems that are sourced from our imperfectly evolved simian brains by cultural means. If not, I'd be interested to hear why you're pessimistic about this.
The thing is, I don't think the cultural changes have to be anything drastic or extreme. Simply calling out your buddies if they're doing stuff like preying on intoxicated women is a step in the right direction. Examining the cultural conceptions of gender and addressing ones that are outdated and harmful. None of that is really rocket science or particularly controversial. It just takes a bit of effort.
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PUA's in general are a bit of a complex subject, from where I sit. I think any sane person is probably immediately aghast at the suggestion that rape should be legal anywhere. However, the limits of what's ethical when it comes to "manipulating" women to have sex with you are pretty murky - for example, does lying about your income count? How about lying about whether you really like your date's glasses? Or deliberately trying to come off as knowing more about movies than you do? Or, female-specific, how about using eyeshadow? Obviously these are fine, so there's some amount of manipulation that qualifies.
You get some absolutely batcrap crazy positions taken on this stuff, too, which drives up cynicism... see:
Just from a personal perspective, I think it should be considered assault if you're lying about your identity (and I think the courts have taken this position too), but beyond that it's a bit of a grey area.
That seems like a pretty indefensible position, no?
It is obvious that he is attempting (albeit poorly) to be satirical/ironic. The fact that you take a quote out of context without highlighting that fact damages your credibility. It's a pretty common strategy among the Regressive Left. I think it's actually earned its own verb: to "greenwald".
As I said, I'm not fan of Roosh, but it is absolutely necessary to be intellectually honest when we have these discussions.
Because of huntingwhale's comment earlier on, I decided to go read up on his lawyer. I don't think she's a scumbag at all, she just seems to be really good at what she does.
This seems to happen in most of these discussions I have with Cliff. He trots the old "Well look at how much better we are than other cultures" argument. And it's weird to me because it's one that neither I nor anyone I know and respect actually tries to argue.
I really, really think it's a response to the sense that you're catastrophizing. In other words, the way you frame the argument makes it seem like this is a massive crisis. The phrase "rape culture" is designed to be brazen and over-the-top, and that's why it's caught on: that kind of thing works. It does get attention. But some of the reaction is, "hold the goddamn phone a minute. You say we live in a "rape culture", but in this culture, rape is viewed as the single worst thing a person can do. The mere insinuation that someone is a sex offender is life-shattering. We hate rapists. We hate the mere idea of rapists. Obviously, we put them in prison. So how is "rape culture" accurate"? Then they go on to say, look, if you want a rape culture, look at country X, where women can't tell their family about marital rape because that would shame them, and so on. And suddenly, you're having an argument that no one actually cares about, and it's totally unproductive.
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I think it's more personal experience in the area that leaves me a bit raw and quick to escalate on the subject.
Well, that never helps. Given that you recognize this, I'd say, take it into account in your responses and adjust for it. I don't mean to sound patronizing or anything; I have the same thing on some topics and I really think that CBT-related thought exercises help.
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The thing is, I don't think the cultural changes have to be anything drastic or extreme. Simply calling out your buddies if they're doing stuff like preying on intoxicated women is a step in the right direction. Examining the cultural conceptions of gender and addressing ones that are outdated and harmful. None of that is really rocket science or particularly controversial. It just takes a bit of effort.
Yeah and I bet if you put it in exactly these terms, everyone's nodding to themselves. Is this too much to ask? No, it really isn't. But there's a reason I bolded that one point you made: that's the sort of thing that needs to be done in a less aggressive, draw-the-battle-lines way than you often do. And you're not alone; it happens a ton. Especially online, where witch hunting and superlative virtue signaling on this stuff is almost a cultural pastime.
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After being a lawyer in Alberta for a few years, I'd say the Crown has a success rate of about 15-20% in sexual assault trials.
The majority of the time, it comes down to he said vs she said, with no other physical evidence or witnesses, over a time period that happened a long time ago.
If the accused takes the stand, denies the offence, is a somewhat believable person, he isn't getting convicted. Unless you draw a judge that is super Crown friendly and always convicts.
I've had judges put an accused on a peace bond after finding the accused not guilty, because they believe the complainant, but can't be sure it happened because they weren't there and have no definitive proof.
Pretty close. Here are the Stats from Stats Can.:
NSFW!
Obviously this doesn't include cases where the assault wasn't charged or reported.
Yeah and I bet if you put it in exactly these terms, everyone's nodding to themselves. Is this too much to ask? No, it really isn't. But there's a reason I bolded that one point you made: that's the sort of thing that needs to be done in a less aggressive, draw-the-battle-lines way than you often do. And you're not alone; it happens a ton. Especially online, where witch hunting and superlative virtue signaling on this stuff is almost a cultural pastime.
I'll admit some of it is frustration boiling over, too, especially online when it seems people are being intransigent rather than skeptical/curious. I try not to use the term rape culture because I don't think it actually captures the point of the concept. I see it as a term that defines the more insidious ways in which sexual violence is normalized and accepted, not like an actual cheerleading of rape itself.
Nah, I definitely disagree with this. This is laurel-resting. Just because there aren't cultures that are better on this subject - or, more accurately, just because there are many that are far worse - does not mean anything substantive in this discussion.
I object to the term 'rape culture' or 'culture of violence' or 'racism culture' because it means that the bad things in peculiar to that the culture, or especially pervasive in that culture. There are murders in Iceland. Does Iceland have a 'culture of murder'? I'd suggest not. I'd suggest it has murders.
Sexual assault and predation are evident in all cultures. That means it's a universal human behaviour, and almost certainly an innate one.
Identifying the sources of problems is essential. A lot of our worst behaviours are rooted in biology, and we need to understand how they work. To take a less controversial subject, it helps to combat obesity if we understand that we have strong innate appetites for fats and sugars. It doesn't do us any good to pretend that the appeal of a cheeseburger and fries is entirely fabricated by McDonalds, and compelling them to change how they advertise is the way to get rid of obesity (though it may help).
The problem is there is a strong and influential school of thought on the left that rejects biological influences on behaviour, and subscribes to the myth of the blank slate. They believe we can make people into whatever we want. And when you start from a flawed premise about the nature or a problem, you've off to a bad start in addressing the problem. This isn't an obscure academic debate either - it has tremendous influence on public attitudes and policies.
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