There most certainly is a level of education about religious content in public schools that should be tolerated, but setting the level at zero tolerance allowed is short changing our youth. However, some people in this thread seem to think otherwise.
I don't know, is there anyone? I certainly don't think there should be zero religious content in public schools.
But there's a difference between teaching about religion and teaching how to be religious.
In the context of elementary, that's the difference between saying "some people believe this, some people believe that" and "you should believe this, other people believe that but they're wrong". Or if two kids get in a fight the difference between "what do you say to Johnny?" and "First we have to ask Jesus to forgive our sins, because sin separates us from God, then what do we say to Johnny."
A Catholic school presumably would be interested in teaching the kinds how to be Catholic, not just about Catholicism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz
As for this article, seeing as how the kids are in Kindergaten, I'd be willing to bet the extent of religous penetration into other classes is something along the lines of singing Jesus filled Christmas songs, and making Jesus themed Christmas crafts, if it's more than that, then sure this woman probalby has a valid point, but we don't know.
We don't know, and it can be hard to see someone else's point of view too. What one person views as innocuous another sees as significant, and without a detailed discussion on why it's significant it's too easy to just dismiss as an overreaction.
See what I said above about the difference between teaching about religion and teaching how to be religious, I don't find it difficult at all to imagine a Catholic school crossing that line into teaching how to be religious (they are a Catholic school after all), and a non-Catholic parent being concerned about that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz
My problem is that my preception is of someone who complains that the angel on the Christmas tree is pushing Christianity down here throat, but would contribute to "There is no god" bus signs. Is that the type of person she is? Probably not, but there have been so many cases of people getting all up in arms about trival things (from both sides) that whenever I see someone arguing about the inclusion or exclusion of religion in anything, I just think they're being an uptight ###### who needs to chill out and let others do their own thing.
People are always going to overreact no matter what. But I like to try and find out why they overreact, because sometimes if I actually understand the whole situation and appreciate their position, I find out it's not as much an overreaction as it first appears to be.
The there is no god bus thing, they didn't actually say that. And while I agree with you I don't like proselytising in general, there is something to be said for raising awareness and trying to normalize something that still has a very negative stigma attached to it. If atheists were as accepted and equally treated in society as everyone else, there wouldn't be a need, but they aren't.. If no one cared if someone was gay, there wouldn't be a gay pride parade. It's a way to push back against society's views, let people know that they're not the only atheist out there, and that it's not something they should have to hide.
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Exp:
[QUOTE=John Doe;2855947]You analogy isn't very close to what we were discussing. People are not going into churches, synagogues and mosques and telling the people there that their God "sucks", which is what you are describing in your analogy.
Do you really think that the following ad is offensive? "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life".
What I find odd is that you feel offended because the ad is an example of an "angry persecuted atheist" telling you that you believe in fairy tales, yet you think that if someone doesn't want any religious overtones to the Christmas holidays in a secular school they are being overly sensitive.[/QUOTE]
I don't feel offended by either, as I don't really care either way.
However I think going out of your way to tell someone that they belive is wrong is a prime example of being an #######.
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As I said in my other post, it's probably because at this point Christmas is essentially a secular holliday, and the name is just semantics.
Do you put up a Christmas tree, or do you tell your kids to gather around the "Winter holliday tree"?
I agree that Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays are pretty close to the same thing. But in this example the difference could be more than the name. Specifically religious songs, acting out the baby and manger, etc. I think it's entirely possible to have a Christmas/Holiday play that is either completely religious or devoid of it.
I'll give you a great example of semantics. My mother is an elementary teacher and her kids would do Yoga. Obviously Yoga has ties to religion, but none of that was carrying over to what the kids were doing. Parent(s) complained and they changed the name to stretching and kept doing the same thing. This was before that crazy lady somewhere in Alberta said it was satanic and made a big deal of it.
Location: In my office, at the Ministry of Awesome!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Doe
I am not trying to be argumentative, and I totally agree with your belief in what is reasonable. However, there are a great deal of people who want exactly that information taught in science classes. From another thread, four in ten people in the U.S. believe in young earth creationism. I would imagine that the vast majority of these people want this taught in schools.
With 40% of the population, you can win a national election if you can get your people out to vote. Then you can dictate what is taught in the classroom, regardless of how reasonable it is or not. This is what scares people like me, and is why I am starting to be more vocal in what I believe. I think that this is also the reason why you are seeing more and more non-religious people airing their opinions.
And I applaud you for trying to be vocal about what you believe.
What I have a problem is people who are dicks about it.
Bus add's that say "There is no god" aren't in any way constructive and are just being confrontational, which is a terrible way to try to sway someone's opinion.
The extreme elements of both the religious side, and the athiest side are in my books douchy jerks because they have no desire, or ability to have a reasonable civilized discussion on the matter, they're just interested in yelling loudly that the other side is wrong.
If you want to stand on a corner with a "God Hate's Fags" sign, fine, go ahead, that's your right, but you're an A$$hole.
If you want to buy a bus add that says "There is no god", fine, go ahead, that's your right, but you're an A$$hole.
If you want to have a reasonable discussion about what would be a good solution to having only a Catholic Board run school in a community (as just about everyone in this thread has done), that's cool, let's have at her.
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The St. Albert system is different from the norm. I don't know a lot about their system, but I have been told by people who lived there that the Catholic schools are the "public schools" and the Protestant schools are the "separate schools" (if they still use that terminology).
Edit: I just did some goggling and discovered that what I wrote above was correct. An interesting note is that the Public school system has less students (about 6200) than the Protestant schools (about 6600). I don't know what the ramifications are of going to the "separate schools" rather than the "public schools" (different fees perhaps?), but obviously there must be some for the parents to have a problem with the set-up.
All true. I don't live far from St. Albert and my kids have never attended school there, but I know some of the city's history. St. Albert was founded as a Catholic settlement (it's one of the oldest communities in Alberta). The Catholic system is public and the protestant system is the separate system.
I'd love to see one public system only, with whichever private systems people want to develop (Christian, French, etc.), but I think having a Catholic system is unnecessary and detrimental. I went through the Catholic system myself, but not in St. Albert.
The ads don't say "There is no god". They say "There's probably no God". I think that the distinction is important.
And while I don't believe that any of the people who designed and worked on getting the ads placed had any illusions that they would "convert" anybody, I also don't feel that the ads were in any way intended to be confrontational. I think that the purpose of the ads was to show that it is acceptable to have an atheist's view of the world.
Honeslty angry persecuted athiest parents say their kids are being "Exposed" to religion like it is toxic waste.
What makes you think she's an atheist?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz
Are those parents so worried that other people will have that much influence over their children? Are they that scared that their children are being exposed to other beliefs? Why can't they just explain "Hey, those people believe in something that we don't, and you don't have to either."
People tend to take their children's education pretty seriously, and yes, they are worried that other people will have that much influence on their children. And "Hey, those people believe in something we don't, and you don't have to either..." will simply not cut it. Kids go to school for seven hours a day, five days a week -- the stink 'll settle in. And besides, ain't it kind of counterproductive to send your kid to school all day and then say "What they believe and talk about every day is all wrong"?
Re: all the scoffing at "political correctness" in general in this thread -- I guaran-goddamn-tee it that if this was a government-sponsored "Mohammad centered learning environment", we wouldn't be hearing about political correctness. The same people saying this is "political correctness" right now would be outraged.
Re: all the scoffing at "political correctness" in general in this thread -- I guaran-goddamn-tee it that if this was a government-sponsored "Mohammad centered learning environment", we wouldn't be hearing about political correctness. The same people saying this is "political correctness" right now would be outraged.
Love the self righteousness!
Well if parents chose to send their child to the "Government Sponsored Mohammad School" then turned around and complaint that their child was getting too much Islam.....I think people would come to the same conclusion that this family is having a bit of a disconnect with reality.
Another example of Atheists (Threat of) War on Christmas
Well if parents chose to send their child to the "Government Sponsored Mohammad School" then turned around and complaint that their child was getting too much Islam.....I think people would come to the same conclusion that this family is having a bit of a disconnect with reality.
Another example of Atheists (Threat of) War on Christmas
Connect with reality and read the article -- it's the only school in town.
Geez...go figure I have to walk you through this. It really isn't that hard.
Whether that school is Catholic, Islamic Madrasas, Buddhist, Hindu, etc... Those parents knew what the school was, there was no secret. They didn't get it sprung on them on day 14..."By the way we are religious".
That family has a choice. They really do.
1) Lump it
2) Go to a different school in a different town.
3) (Your favourite) Home schooling!
Oh, sorry about the Korean thing. That was suppose to be a reply to Thor's post. I forgot to quote him. Thought it was a funny reply to his post. My bad.
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Geez...go figure I have to walk you through this. It really isn't that hard.
Whether that school is Catholic, Islamic Madrasas, Buddhist, Hindu, etc... Those parents knew what the school was, there was no secret. They didn't get it sprung on them on day 14..."By the way we are religious".
That family has a choice. They really do.
1) Lump it
2) Go to a different school in a different town.
3) (Your favourite) Home schooling!
Go figure indeed.
This was buried in the very first paragraph of the article in question:
EDMONTON — When Morinville mom Donna Hunter sent her five-year-old daughter to kindergarten orientation, she was surprised to learn that the public schools in her town were actually Catholic schools with a heavy emphasis on God and religion in the curriculum.
Ho hum. We disagree as usual. It's a surprisingly "liberal" attitude coming from you, advocating the public funding of Islamic madrasas, Buddhist, Hindu etc. schools.
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