Government on the brink?

[Incogneto]

I only read half the thread, so I am sorry if some of this is out of context, or a fata....

I am a life long PC'er. so much so that my father was an MP under Joe Clark.

With that said, there is no way I ever vote for a party led by Stephen Harper, and I am not alone in saying this. the 'Merger' was no more than a hostile takeover of the 'Coservative' name. If you look at the numbers from the past 2 elections, you will see that the 13% of the PC vote DID NOT migrate the the conservative party, as they expected...Small C'ers went to the Libs.

Now, sure, I am not happy with the Libs and what they have done in the past, oh, 5 or 6 years, but I am also not to happy with the way Harper plays his mandate on the party without going through caucus for approval. He is running that party as a dictatorship.

My prediciton: The Conservatives get an election called in the fall, and the East STILL will not vote for an Alberta Leader, Stephen Harper. Therefor, the Bloc picks up more seats, the NDP'ers pick up more seats, but the Conservatives plateau, and we get ANOTHER Lib minority. My reasoning? the Conservatives had EVERYTHING going for them in the last election, and they couldn't topple the Libs. Where they are today is their high-point with Harper as leader.

What they need to do is Dump Harper (Usually 2 election losses is when that happens), and bring in a leader from Quebec. With that I not only guarentee a Conservative Gov't in the following election, but I guarentee a STRONG conseravative majority.

As for the people here that support Harper and the Conservatives, I have one question for you. How does Harper appeal to Easterners? My answer to the question is that he doesn't, and as sad as it is, this country is run by Ont. and Que (50% of the pop'n).

My opinion. Not yours.

[Incogneto]

I also want to be the first to say that there is NO ROOM FOR RELIGION IN GOVERNMENT! Bush is guilty of this, as is Harper. they should be seperate....no doubt about that.

[Sammie]

Apparently the Liberals have highjacked this thread which started out discussing Liberal corruption and turned into spreading innuendo about the Conservatives and bashing Christian.

That's okay but, whatever you do, don't question same sex marriage. You guys are something else!

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by Sammie@Apr 6 2005, 06:37 PM
Apparently the Liberals have highjacked this thread which started out discussing Liberal corruption and turned into spreading innuendo about the Conservatives and bashing Christian.

That's okay but, whatever you do, don't question same sex marriage. You guys are something else!

Hijacked? Kind of a strong word for a pretty tame discussion.

Fly off the handle much?

[ernie]

It's funny Chretien has said he has the same view as Day on many things given that Chretien is Catholic yet it was Day and the CA that got crucified. The difference is that for whatever reason the media plays the conservative leader as one who dictates party policy while the liberal leader follows the guidelines of the policy laid out by the majority of the party members. It happened with Day (agreed he was a bad leader with views that don't agree with my own) and it happened with Harper.

What is stupid is not Day's belief that the world is 10,000 years old as his belief in the literal meaning of the Bible leads him to believe but people slamming him for that belief. You can pull out all the science "facts" (which in the end are just proposals that fit observations) you want but ultimately that intense belief is going to trump all for a large percentage of the population....especially the Christian population. Being a scientist myself I have known many many scientist Ph. D's who are incredibly bright and I guarantee more intelligent than pretty much anyone on these boards and not at all insane that have that same belief. yeah it doesn't make sense to you and me and you'd think a scientist would "know better" for lack of a better phrase. You may not vote for them because their beliefs don't mesh with yours as is your perogative but it hardly makes them stupid nor does it mean that one member of a party having those beliefs is going to form party policy.

Let's face it, abortion legislation and stuff like that really isn't going to be at the forefront of any new governments plans if they get power. They are not only divisive to the population as a whole but they are very divisive within the party. They aren't things you particularily want to tackle with any sort of gusto. And to be perfectly frank you have to differentiate your party from your opponent on emotional issues.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by ernie@Apr 6 2005, 01:43 PM


What is stupid is not Day's belief that the world is 10,000 years old as his belief in the literal meaning of the Bible leads him to believe but people slamming him for that belief. You can pull out all the science "facts" (which in the end are just proposals that fit observations) you want but ultimately that intense belief is going to trump all for a large percentage of the population....especially the Christian population.

So let me get this straight -- believing the world is 10 thousand years old is not stupid, but saying it's stupid is stupid? Interesting.

That intense belief is not going to trump all for a large percentage of the population because a large percentage of the population doesn't believe it. A large percentage of the Christian population doesn't even believe it.

Do you think he gets ridiculed and mocked for his belief because most people agree with him?

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Originally posted by Sammie@Apr 6 2005, 12:37 PM
Apparently the Liberals have highjacked this thread which started out discussing Liberal corruption and turned into spreading innuendo about the Conservatives and bashing Christian.

That's okay but, whatever you do, don't question same sex marriage. You guys are something else!

Ahh yes. The same sex debate. Much like our Calgary vs Edmonton debates I think there's a whole lot of yelling and really no right answer so let's just do a quick summary of any discussion to save everyone a whole lot of time:

NO
- It's wrong
- It leds to legalization of peodophlia and beastiality.
- It's a sin
- the Bible clearly states that man shall not lie with man.
- It's the decay of Society.
- Biologically from a reproduction aspect, it doesn't make sense.


YES
- I'm not gay so why does it matter to me if someone else wants to go this route.
- There's nothing wrong with it.
- It's wrong to exclude one segment of society from basic rights and benefits.
- Religion is driving much of the hate towards gays, not individuals.


and so forth...

Like someone else pointed out, let's not forget that corruption isn't a Liberal only trait. Airbus Scandal under Mulroney? Sinclair Stevens and his "development money", also under Mulroney. I welcome a change in government and would gladly vote for someone else but at present the current "Conservative" party is as about as impotent and as riddled with skeletons as the next.

And really Sammie, your post history would suggest you fall well right on the political spectrum. In Alberta, that viewpoint would typically be represented by the Alberta Alliance Party, a party that garnered 9.1% of your vote. Are you really suprised that not everyone here agrees with your views? Do they have to?

[Tron_fdc]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Apr 6 2005, 07:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Apr 6 2005, 07:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-ernie@Apr 6 2005, 01:43 PM


What is stupid is not Day's belief that the world is 10,000 years old as his belief in the literal meaning of the Bible leads him to believe but people slamming him for that belief. You can pull out all the science "facts" (which in the end are just proposals that fit observations) you want but ultimately that intense belief is going to trump all for a large percentage of the population....especially the Christian population.

So let me get this straight -- believing the world is 10 thousand years old is not stupid, but saying it's stupid is stupid? Interesting.

That intense belief is not going to trump all for a large percentage of the population because a large percentage of the population doesn't believe it. A large percentage of the Christian population doesn't even believe it.

Do you think he gets ridiculed and mocked for his belief because most people agree with him? [/b][/quote]
Okay then, let me ask you's dis:

Do you's like banaaaanas?



RESPECT!!

(funniest argument against creationism I have EVER seen)

[Sammie]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Apr 6 2005, 01:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Apr 6 2005, 01:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-ernie@Apr 6 2005, 01:43 PM


What is stupid is not Day's belief that the world is 10,000 years old as his belief in the literal meaning of the Bible leads him to believe but people slamming him for that belief. You can pull out all the science "facts" (which in the end are just proposals that fit observations) you want but ultimately that intense belief is going to trump all for a large percentage of the population....especially the Christian population.

So let me get this straight -- believing the world is 10 thousand years old is not stupid, but saying it's stupid is stupid? Interesting.

That intense belief is not going to trump all for a large percentage of the population because a large percentage of the population doesn't believe it. A large percentage of the Christian population doesn't even believe it.

Do you think he gets ridiculed and mocked for his belief because most people agree with him? [/b][/quote]
Since when did you become "most people"?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Sammie+Apr 6 2005, 05:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Apr 6 2005, 05:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

So let me get this straight -- believing the world is 10 thousand years old is not stupid, but saying it's stupid is stupid? Interesting.

That intense belief is not going to trump all for a large percentage of the population because a large percentage of the population doesn't believe it. A large percentage of the Christian population doesn't even believe it.

Do you think he gets ridiculed and mocked for his belief because most people agree with him?

Since when did you become "most people"? [/b][/quote]
Ernie said "a large percentage of the population" agree with Stockwell. I pointed out that Stockwell's beliefs were widely mocked and generally snickered at. If a large percentage of the population, or "most people" agreed with Stockwell's beliefs, do you think those beliefs would be publicly mocked and snickered at? I don't.

I suppose I made a bit of a leap when I translated "a large percentage of the population" to mean "most people".

[peter12]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Apr 6 2005, 05:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Apr 6 2005, 05:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Since when did you become "most people"?

Ernie said "a large percentage of the population" agree with Stockwell. I pointed out that Stockwell's beliefs were widely mocked and generally snickered at. If a large percentage of the population, or "most people" agreed with Stockwell's beliefs, do you think those beliefs would be publicly mocked and snickered at? I don't.

I suppose I made a bit of a leap when I translated "a large percentage of the population" to mean "most people". [/b][/quote]
Agreed. Anyone who takes the 7 day Genesis story literally is completely out to lunch.

Something like The Big Bang happened without a doubt. What caused it or what came before it is completely up to personal belief. God is as rational as anything else when it comes to that point.

[Sammie]

Originally posted by I-Hate-Hulse@Apr 6 2005, 02:00 PM
And really Sammie, your post history would suggest you fall well right on the political spectrum. In Alberta, that viewpoint would typically be represented by the Alberta Alliance Party, a party that garnered 9.1% of your vote. Are you really suprised that not everyone here agrees with your views? Do they have to?

Oh heavens no!!! I'm now a marked, categorized, and condemned man!

If you must know. I wasted my vote on the Liberal Party for far too many years. Probably more years than you've lived. I changed my vote as a result of the Liberal Party's highly successful character assassination of Stockwell Day when he took over the leadership of the Alliance Party. It opened my eyes to the warts, deceit, and extreme corruption of a party that's been in power for far too long.

Furthermore, what does the Alliance Party of Alberta have to do with the federal Conservative Party? And why bring up that silly 9% statistic that you manufactured? Last time I checked the Conservative Party had close to 30% of the support in the entire country. Are you attempting to give the impression that my opinion is more marginalized than it really is?

As I said before, you Liberals REALLY are something beyond belief! Keep up the well used, old, and worn out mantra, "The Conservatives are scary. The Conservatives are really, REALLY scary! Be afraid. Be very, VERY afraid!!!"

Let's continue to give our billions and billions of excessive tax dollars to those wonderful Liberals to spend as they wish on whatever they wish.

[Sammie]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Apr 6 2005, 05:29 PM
Ernie said "a large percentage of the population" agree with Stockwell. I pointed out that Stockwell's beliefs were widely mocked and generally snickered at. If a large percentage of the population, or "most people" agreed with Stockwell's beliefs, do you think those beliefs would be publicly mocked and snickered at? I don't.

I suppose I made a bit of a leap when I translated "a large percentage of the population" to mean "most people".

I've never had much respect for people who take pleasure at mocking and snickering at other people's differing opinions. I usually label these bigots as callous fools and idiots.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by peter12@Apr 6 2005, 11:46 PM

Something like The Big Bang happened without a doubt. What caused it or what came before it is completely up to personal belief. God is as rational as anything else when it comes to that point.

That's exactly how I see it. I don't see why either belief in God or science have to cancel the other out. The Bible was written by ancient people and the audience was meant to be people from that time and on, in every culture. If they wanted to communicate the meesage of a God to them in ways that made sense, they would have had tosimplify things.

They couldn't just start with advanced physics and cosmology.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Sammie@Apr 6 2005, 06:15 PM

I've never had much respect for people who take pleasure at mocking and snickering at other people's differing opinions. I usually label these bigots as callous fools and idiots.

Fair enough. I've never heard of a conservative mocking or snickering at someone else's opinions so you got me there.

[peter12]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+Apr 6 2005, 06:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ Apr 6 2005, 06:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-peter12@Apr 6 2005, 11:46 PM

Something like The Big Bang happened without a doubt. What caused it or what came before it is completely up to personal belief. God is as rational as anything else when it# comes to that point.

That's exactly how I see it. I don't see why either belief in God or science have to cancel the other out. The Bible was written by ancient people and the audience was meant to be people from that time and on, in every culture. If they wanted to communicate the meesage of a God to them in ways that made sense, they would have had tosimplify things.

They couldn't just start with advanced physics and cosmology. [/b][/quote]
Exactly how I feel. The 7 day story is most likely an allegory. Alot of it can fit with our notion of the Universe's beginning.

I rationalize God by the way I see the incredible order of nature and simply by the natural human tendency that life would feel so empty without some belief.

[peter12]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Apr 6 2005, 06:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Apr 6 2005, 06:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Sammie@Apr 6 2005, 06:15 PM

I've never had much respect for people who take pleasure at mocking and snickering at other people's differing opinions. I usually label these bigots as callous fools and idiots.

Fair enough. I've never heard of a conservative mocking or snickering at someone else's opinions so you got me there. [/b][/quote]
I see your point. Indeed true conservatism isn't really an ideology at all, but is more of an anti-ideology in response to all human impulse.

But seriously even the most liberal person has to see the benefit in conservative belief.

Not the hate spewing idiots of the Religous Rights of course, or the incredibly socially callous Neo-Cons.

Traditional conservatism does hold alot of wisdom for mankind.

[ernie]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Apr 6 2005, 12:54 PM
So let me get this straight -- believing the world is 10 thousand years old is not stupid, but saying it's stupid is stupid? Interesting.

That intense belief is not going to trump all for a large percentage of the population because a large percentage of the population doesn't believe it. A large percentage of the Christian population doesn't even believe it.

Do you think he gets ridiculed and mocked for his belief because most people agree with him?

So let me get this straight -- believing the world is 10 thousand years old is not stupid, but saying it's stupid is stupid? Interesting.

Perhaps stupid is the wrong term. Ignorant would perhaps be better. But it's not really whether you think it's stupid or not its more about you not respecting someones religious beliefs just because YOU don't think his view of things makes sense. As I mentioned there are many many many many very intelligent researchers that believe the same thing. That do indeed believe a literal translation of the bible. It may not make "sense" to you or me but they certainly aren't stupid people for believing that and I'm certainly not going to dismiss their thoughts or ideas on other subjects just because they have such a strong belief.

That intense belief is not going to trump all for a large percentage of the population because a large percentage of the population doesn't believe it. A large percentage of the Christian population doesn't even believe it.

You may be interested in this little tidbit. It's an american survey done in Feb of last year. This comes from the Washington Times.

An ABC News poll released Sunday found that 61 percent of Americans believe the account of creation in the Bible's book of Genesis is "literally true" rather than a story meant as a "lesson.

..........The poll found that 75 percent of Protestants believed in the story of creation, 79 percent in the Red Sea account and 73 percent in Noah and the ark.
Among evangelical Protestants, those figures were 87 percent, 91 percent and 87 percent, respectively. Among Catholics, they were 51 percent, 50 percent and 44 percent.

Survey

I couldn't find the similar canadian survey that I have seen . I expect the numbers do differ from the american one however there is certainly not just a large percentage of US Christians that take the meaning of the bible as literal but a large portion of the US population. The canadian numbers may be quite different I don't know but I certainly expect a large chunk of the population would indeed believe the same thing, especially among the practicing christians. The bible is still taught as literal in a good chunk of the churches now and when I was growing up. The allegory nature of the bible has not been around in active church teachings until very recently and I think you'll find that it has not gained acceptance into the mainstream christian churches yet.

Note large chunk does not = majority. If I wanted to imply majority I would have said as much.

Do you think he gets ridiculed and mocked for his belief because most people agree with him?

No I think it's because some can't understand why he would believe what he does and are so ignorant and small-minded that they feel it necessary to ridicule and mock him for HIS intensely PERSONAL beliefs for the simple reason that his beliefs do not agree with their own. And to go further dismiss the person that is a literal creationist as a stupid person that can have no valuable input in other areas. Look around your neighbourhood, look at your profs (science or otherwise), look at your peers (not just friends) and among them you will find many literal creationists who are quite intelligent.

Now of course it goes both ways...I have very little time for small-minded religious folks who dismiss others just because they have different religious beliefs. I don't know Stockwell Day personally though I've talked to him on a few occassions (including a converstaion on this topic) and he has never come across to me as unaccepting of others just because they don't believe what he believes, though he absolutely wears his christianity on his sleeve as it is a huge part of his life.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by Sammie@Apr 7 2005, 12:15 AM
I've never had much respect for people who take pleasure at mocking and snickering at other people's differing opinions. I usually label these bigots as callous fools and idiots.

Funny because you just did that in your previous post when you generalized about the "liberals" on this board. Hypocrite.

[peter12]

Let's all remember there is a huge difference between Liberals and liberals. The Federal Liberals make me feel sick to my stomach but liberal ideas aren't such a bad thing.