Prostitution laws struck down by Ont. court

[blankall]

Originally Posted by valo403

You keep clinging to this as if prostiution is an enterprise that can currently be freely engaged in without legal ramifications. Either you actually think that, which would be stunning, or you are being willfully ignorant.

it is.....people do it all the time. Go on craigslist right now or open your yellow pages. As long as you don't explicitely advertise sex in a public place, you are allowed to be a prostitute. It is not illegal to advertise a date and then negotiate for sex later on.

Before you call someone ignorant you should really check your facts first.

Anyways, back to this debate.

We have real models of what full legalization of prositution does. In both Germany and Amsterdam prostitution is legalized and it has created an absolute mess. Women are just as at risk, and organized crime has taken over. All legalizing prostitution acomplished was turning these places into hot spots for sex tourism and sex slave traficking.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

It seems to me that you are off-base with your impressions here. I think you are over-stating the proportion of extremely desperate prostitutes and under-stating the abuse experienced by a typical prostitute.

It already is illegal to abuse a prostitute and legal to be a prostitute. A better system would be to emphasize to prostitutes that they can come to the police without legal ramifications against themselves.

In addition, violence agaisnt prostitutes in places like Amsterdam has not stopped merely because it is legal.

Originally Posted by Savvy27

Also, the phrase "willingly chose to be prostitutes" is vague. Are you talking about women who are desperate for income and without marketable skills that resort to selling their bodies, or do you mean women who are literally forced into prostitution by pimps? Not that it matters either way. If a prostitute is in a bad situation and is aware that there are regulated, safe working conditions, then they are put in a situation where they can choose to go work at a regulated service, rather than stay where they are.

It is unfair to put a condition on changing these laws that every prostitute has to take advantage of the change, or it's not worth doing it. This would be a positive change for working prostitutes and, if well-implemented, would lead to a better and safer work environment.

If by better work environment you mean they are forced into brothels by intrenational pimps....because that is what has happened in every jurisdiction in the world where prostitution is legal. Why would it be different here?

Originally Posted by Savvy27

Are you saying that prostitutes are falling victim to violence because of drug use and mental health issues? Limiting this part to health care, I'm referring to things like employee health benefits that people working in other fields enjoy.

If you knew anything about the homeless problem, you would now that druge use and mental health issues are extremely common. That is what I am saying. Many of the people on the streets suffer from a combination of the above.

Originally Posted by Savvy27

As for mental health issues, they are disconnected from prostitution (as you say) so they have nothing to do with this argument. And I'm not sure at all what you mean by psychological damage and what it has to do with reporting violence or health care.

Mental health issues are not disconnected from prostitution. Many women end up on the streets or unable to hold down a job due to mental health issues and then are forced into prostitution out of desperation.

Originally Posted by Savvy27

On the other hand, it's also possible drug use might be a symptom of the harsh working and living conditions of prostitutes. If these conditions are improved, I think that there would be a marked decrease in drug use amongst prostitutes. Or, perhaps legalization will lead to a culture change in the prostitution industry and the numbers of drug users would go down.

right.....That is an accurate reflection of how drug addicts work . We can regulate the industry and throw some money at the problem and it will just vanish into thin air. Why didn't anyone else eveeeeeer think of that?

Originally Posted by Savvy27

The issue of prostitution is inseparable from the issues of pimps and brothels. It is a mystery to me how you can absolutely deny the benefits of regulation. You've written that you don't think regulation of brothels and pimps would benefit hookers at all. Then you disregard comments about health inspections, safe working environment, etc.

Pimps and brothels ARE being addressed through the decriminalization of prostitution related activities (soliciting and operating a bawdy house).

Regulation isnt' the problem. It's allowing brothels and pimps to operate legally on a larger scale that is the problem. It has been tried in many countries all over the world. It doesn't stop violence. All it does is increase the amount of sex slaves.

Originally Posted by Savvy27

Even if the stigma remains, there are degrees of intensity. I would imagine that if prostitution becomes a regulated, professionally run industry, attitudes will change among many people as time goes by.

Attitudes will never change. Like I said before, pornography has been a regulated and legalized industry for a long time. Porn stars are extremely stigmatized. You have sex for money and people lose respect for you. That is just the way it is.

[CaptainCrunch]

I think that they should legalize it to bring it out into the light. Things like brothels especially for really young girls would be illegal, but the criminal justice system can focus on the crimes related to prostitution and not the girls themselves.

Plus we would need to have a federal Minister of Ho's. I personally would like to apply for the job of Second Assistant Deputy Minister of Ho's.

"Sir, I need to go on a fact finding mission, and expense it"

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I think that they should legalize it to bring it out into the light. Things like brothels especially for really young girls would be illegal, but the criminal justice system can focus on the crimes related to prostitution and not the girls themselves.

Plus we would need to have a federal Minister of Ho's. I personally would like to apply for the job of Second Assistant Deputy Minister of Ho's.

"Sir, I need to go on a fact finding mission, and expense it"

There is already a job like that - it's called "vice cop"...

[valo403]

Originally Posted by blankall

it is.....people do it all the time. Go on craigslist right now or open your yellow pages. As long as you don't explicitely advertise sex in a public place, you are allowed to be a prostitute. It is not illegal to advertise a date and then negotiate for sex later on.

Before you call someone ignorant you should really check your facts first.

Except for the fact that numerous other laws are broken in that scenario of course

[VladtheImpaler]

Sorry, blank, I really don't understand why you are driving so hard on this issue. Yes, there are problems associated with legalizing prostitution, and, yes, it won't help the "crack whore" segment of the industry, but I fail to see how you can argue that legalization will not be better than status quo, both for the pro's and their customers. Making it legal makes it a safer transaction for both parties...

[Addick]

Originally Posted by blankall

We have real models of what full legalization of prositution does. In both Germany and Amsterdam prostitution is legalized and it has created an absolute mess.

If it is such a mess, then why aren't they reverting to their previous systems? While I'm not naive enough to believe that legalization will be a seamless transition and sex trafficking won't increase, I do believe that in order to evolve as a society we need to accept certain growing pains. Just because solving certain problems will create new problems does not mean we shouldn't solve the original problems, we can come up with further solutions.

Also, I highly doubt the intensity of the sex trafficking problem will be the same in Canada as Germany and the Netherlands; they have much larger pool of potential sex slaves.

[fredr123]

For those interested, there was a buttload of expert evidence presented in the Bedford case including expert evidence regarding the situation in Germany and The Netherlands. The Dutch stuff starts on page 47 of the PDF while the Germany stuff begins on page 49.

http://www.uc.utoronto.ca/images/sto...ng_bedford.pdf

[Savvy27]

Originally Posted by blankall

It already is illegal to abuse a prostitute and legal to be a prostitute. A better system would be to emphasize to prostitutes that they can come to the police without legal ramifications against themselves.

I don't see an argument against legalization here. You could emphasize the legal rights of prostitutes in a regulated system.

In addition, violence agaisnt prostitutes in places like Amsterdam has not stopped merely because it is legal.

You're the one speaking in absolutes here, not me. I don't anticipate that violence against women is ever going to disappear completely, let alone violence against prostitutes. But, I would be absolutely shocked if the instances of violence were higher among prostitutes working in legally sanctioned bawdy houses than street (or illegal brothel) prostitutes.

If by better work environment you mean they are forced into brothels by intrenational pimps....because that is what has happened in every jurisdiction in the world where prostitution is legal. Why would it be different here?

First off, why would I mean that? I am assuming that regulated brothels would be subject to inspection and anybody being forced to prostitute themselves against their will would have a pretty straightforward path of escape and a pretty damn good legal claim.

Secondly, do you want to back that claim up? Every jurisdiction in the world with legal prostitution has resulted in all of the hookers being forced into brothels by international pimps?

If you knew anything about the homeless problem, you would now that druge use and mental health issues are extremely common. That is what I am saying. Many of the people on the streets suffer from a combination of the above.

Prostitutes are not necessarily homeless. Even if you are granted the assumption that regulation will not help crack-addled or schizophrenic hookers (which I think is needlessly cynical), those are not the only type of hookers that exist. There are prostitutes who simply do it because they can make a lot of money and regulation would allow them to conduct business in ways that allow them to be more safe.

Mental health issues are not disconnected from prostitution. Many women end up on the streets or unable to hold down a job due to mental health issues and then are forced into prostitution out of desperation.

Prostitution is the last step of your sad story though. The homelessness and desperation were already present before prostitution entered into it. Your focus on sex slaves, drug addicts, and crazy people is preventing you from acknowledging the people that regulation CAN help.

right.....That is an accurate reflection of how drug addicts work . We can regulate the industry and throw some money at the problem and it will just vanish into thin air. Why didn't anyone else eveeeeeer think of that?

What?

Regulation isnt' the problem. It's allowing brothels and pimps to operate legally on a larger scale that is the problem. It has been tried in many countries all over the world. It doesn't stop violence. All it does is increase the amount of sex slaves.

Regulating brothels makes them more likely to house sex slaves? That doesn't make any sense. Did you ever consider that the increase in human trafficking might be unrelated to regulation? And how can you compare the number of sex slaves in off-the-grid brothels to regulated brothels? Where would the numbers come from in such a comparison?

As for pimps, regulation alters the role of the pimp. Pimps are used for solicitation, security, and secrecy. Pimps become unnecessary (or less necessary) in a regulated, open industry.

Attitudes will never change. Like I said before, pornography has been a regulated and legalized industry for a long time. Porn stars are extremely stigmatized. You have sex for money and people lose respect for you. That is just the way it is.

You don't think that porn stars are less stigmatized now than 50 years ago? I think you are totally wrong on this point.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Sorry, blank, I really don't understand why you are driving so hard on this issue.

Because I'm against sex slaves? There is nothing to show that leglization of pimps and brothels improves the lives of women. Numerous evidence, however, does show that the process vastly increases human trafficking.

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Yes, there are problems associated with legalizing prostitution, and, yes, it won't help the "crack whore" segment of the industry, but I fail to see how you can argue that legalization will not be better than status quo, both for the pro's and their customers. Making it legal makes it a safer transaction for both parties...

Yeah, but it has been shown in jurisdiction like Amsterdam, Germany, and Mexico, that it has little to no benefit for the girls, and only stands to increase the amount of human traficking.

The only person it benefits is the Johns and sex tourists and a limited number of professional escorts.

My question is how many girls have to be sold into slavery before those benefits you speak of get outweighed.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by valo403

Except for the fact that numerous other laws are broken in that scenario of course

Which laws? Be specific. An adult can legally arange for another adult to have sex with them for money. Not a single crime there.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Addick

If it is such a mess, then why aren't they reverting to their previous systems? While I'm not naive enough to believe that legalization will be a seamless transition and sex trafficking won't increase, I do believe that in order to evolve as a society we need to accept certain growing pains. Just because solving certain problems will create new problems does not mean we shouldn't solve the original problems, we can come up with further solutions.

They are reverting to the previous system. Once you create a system it's hard to shut it down instantly. The Netherlands have scaled back on their sex market in a huge way though. The city has even gone as far as privately purchasing the licensed establishments so they can shut them down:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/200...news.amsterdam

Originally Posted by Addick

Also, I highly doubt the intensity of the sex trafficking problem will be the same in Canada as Germany and the Netherlands; they have much larger pool of potential sex slaves.

Why? Canada has many many illegal migrants from Asia. We are close enough to Mexico that we would see a huge surge from there.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by blankall

Yeah, but it has been shown in jurisdiction like Amsterdam, Germany, and Mexico, that it has little to no benefit for the girls, and only stands to increase the amount of human traficking.

In Amsterdam street prostitution is illegal and to rent a "window" a girl must have an EU passport and be of the age of majority. She must also be able to pay for the rental.

That means:

1) Addicts will not be able to work as prostitutes if they are unable to control themselves enough to save for space rental rather than buy their next hit.
2) It is much easier to discourage child prostitution as clients have a known supply of legally working girls.
3) Whilst there are still girls who get into prostitution because they feel coerced by economic pressure or abuse, at least they can't have their passports/identity withheld and they are legally entitled to live in the country where they are working, and therefore a pimp can not threaten to turn them in to the authorities and get them deported. The girls in Amsterdam may not be Dutch, but they are EU citizens.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by blankall

Because I'm against sex slaves? There is nothing to show that leglization of pimps and brothels improves the lives of women. Numerous evidence, however, does show that the process vastly increases human trafficking.



Yeah, but it has been shown in jurisdiction like Amsterdam, Germany, and Mexico, that it has little to no benefit for the girls, and only stands to increase the amount of human traficking.

The only person it benefits is the Johns and sex tourists and a limited number of professional escorts.

My question is how many girls have to be sold into slavery before those benefits you speak of get outweighed.

Too much hyperbole. What's to stop sex trafficking into Canada now? You would think being underground would be more conducive to sex slavery... In the end it comes down to police investigation and enforcement. I remember a few years ago when the Liberal immigration minister (or was it deputy minister) was facilitating the importation of Romanian strippers to work at the Brass Rail... were they "slaves" or just girls looking to make money? I don't know - I am sure there were people making money off it. If we legalize prostitution, and the ho's are required to have a license, wouldn't it be easier to crack down on human trafficking, since, presumably, one would need to establish residence, have a SIN, and medical records to be able to obtain said license??? A sex slave would not be able to do that. And if legitimate immigrants come here to work as hookers - great, as long as they pay taxes. Better tax-paying hookers than Tamil Tigers on welfare.

[Savvy27]

Originally Posted by blankall

Because I'm against sex slaves? There is nothing to show that leglization of pimps and brothels improves the lives of women. Numerous evidence, however, does show that the process vastly increases human trafficking.

Not one of the reports cited in Fredr123's link support this assertion.

Yeah, but it has been shown in jurisdiction like Amsterdam, Germany, and Mexico, that it has little to no benefit for the girls, and only stands to increase the amount of human traficking.

The only person it benefits is the Johns and sex tourists and a limited number of professional escorts.

My question is how many girls have to be sold into slavery before those benefits you speak of get outweighed.

"While Brents and Hausbeck cited numerous problems with brothel prostitution in the state (Nevada), with respect to the issue of violence, the study found that only two and a half percent of prostitutes surveyed had experienced violence while working lawfully indoors and 84% of licensed prostitutes agreed that their job was safe. The authors concluded at p. 293 that, 'Legal brothels generally offer a safer working environment than their illegal counterparts.'" -page 53, para 213

"The German Report states that no measurable improvements are detectable in achieving social protection for prostitutes, improving working conditions, encouraging prostitutes to exit the industry or reducing crime. However, the fears that decriminalization would open the floodgates to organized crime, human trafficking, or the exploitation of minors have not materialized as a result of the legal changes." -page 49, para 201

(I see that legalization doesn't always result in better working conditions, but that's pretty far from your assertion that it absolutely won't. As for your claims that sex slavery has increased in every jurisdiction, there is no support whatsoever)

"Dutch decriminalization has been moderately successful in improving working conditions and safety in the legal practice of prostitution. The report suggests that women working in the legal sector are neither underaged nor exploited. Sexually transmitted diseases are now less prevalent among prostitutes than among the population at large and free anonymous health clinics are available within Amsterdam's Red Light District. Approximately 90 per cent of reported incidents of violence against prostitutes are against women working illegally." -page 47, para 188

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

Not one of the reports cited in Fredr123's link support this assertion.

"While Brents and Hausbeck cited numerous problems with brothel prostitution in the state (Nevada), with respect to the issue of violence, the study found that only two and a half percent of prostitutes surveyed had experienced violence while working lawfully indoors and 84% of licensed prostitutes agreed that their job was safe. The authors concluded at p. 293 that, 'Legal brothels generally offer a safer working environment than their illegal counterparts.'" -page 53, para 213

"The German Report states that no measurable improvements are detectable in achieving social protection for prostitutes, improving working conditions, encouraging prostitutes to exit the industry or reducing crime. However, the fears that decriminalization would open the floodgates to organized crime, human trafficking, or the exploitation of minors have not materialized as a result of the legal changes." -page 49, para 201

(I see that legalization doesn't always result in better working conditions, but that's pretty far from your assertion that it absolutely won't. As for your claims that sex slavery has increased in every jurisdiction, there is no support whatsoever)

"Dutch decriminalization has been moderately successful in improving working conditions and safety in the legal practice of prostitution. The report suggests that women working in the legal sector are neither underaged nor exploited. Sexually transmitted diseases are now less prevalent among prostitutes than among the population at large and free anonymous health clinics are available within Amsterdam's Red Light District. Approximately 90 per cent of reported incidents of violence against prostitutes are against women working illegally." -page 47, para 188

This emphasizes my point.

It does nothing for the women who are working illegally, which are the ones most at risk now.

It only serves to fill brothels with foreign prostitutes. Many of whom would be sex slaves.

I also don't know where they are getting this from:

"the fears that decriminalization would open the floodgates to organized crime, human trafficking, or the exploitation of minors have not materialized as a result of the legal changes"

Both Germany and Amsterdam have become top destinations for human trafickers since legalization of brothels/pimps.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by blankall

Which laws? Be specific. An adult can legally arange for another adult to have sex with them for money. Not a single crime there.

Keeping a Common Bawdy House: section 210 (1): It is illegal for an owner, landlord, tenant, agent or property manager to knowingly allow their property or any part of the premises to be used as a place for prostitution (sex for money).

Being an Inmate of Common Bawdy House section 210 (2): It is illegal to work or live in a space that is used as a space where sex for money takes place.

Transportation of a Person to a Common Bawdy House section 211: It is illegal to take, offer to take, or direct anyone to a common bawdy house.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by blankall

This emphasizes my point.

It does nothing for the women who are working illegally, which are the ones most at risk now.

It only serves to fill brothels with foreign prostitutes. Many of whom would be sex slaves.

I also don't know where they are getting this from:

"the fears that decriminalization would open the floodgates to organized crime, human trafficking, or the exploitation of minors have not materialized as a result of the legal changes"

Both Germany and Amsterdam have become top destinations for human trafickers since legalization of brothels/pimps.

Where's your source? Seems the actual studies disagree with your bold claims.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by blankall

They are reverting to the previous system. Once you create a system it's hard to shut it down instantly. The Netherlands have scaled back on their sex market in a huge way though. The city has even gone as far as privately purchasing the licensed establishments so they can shut them down:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/200...news.amsterdam

Closing a few windows is not reverting to the previous system, as some of the literature quoted by the Bedford Ruling they are continuing to reform the system not reverting to a previous one. Also, here is an interesting quote from the article you provided:

The final decision came from the city's mayor, Job Cohen, who argued that the brothels were attracting crime and money-laundering to the area. 'We want to get rid of the underlying criminality,' he told a TV station last week.

Nowhere in that quote did he say the Netherlands were trying to get rid of prostitution but rather the negative elements that are plaguing it.

Originally Posted by blankall

Why? Canada has many many illegal migrants from Asia. We are close enough to Mexico that we would see a huge surge from there.

However, as you state they are illegal migrants and, as such, would not be granted a work visa/permit and allowed to work in legal brothels/windows if we were to follow the Dutch model.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by valo403

Keeping a Common Bawdy House: section 210 (1): It is illegal for an owner, landlord, tenant, agent or property manager to knowingly allow their property or any part of the premises to be used as a place for prostitution (sex for money).

Being an Inmate of Common Bawdy House section 210 (2): It is illegal to work or live in a space that is used as a space where sex for money takes place.

Transportation of a Person to a Common Bawdy House section 211: It is illegal to take, offer to take, or direct anyone to a common bawdy house.

Putting ads on craigslist does not violate this.

Neither does running an escort agency, unless you are providing a place for prostitute to gather and then meet their clients. Once again this can be easily side stepped. The agency merely arranges "the date". The sex is a contractual matter between the prostitute and the customer, which is totally legal. Tehre is a reason the yellow pages is filled with escort agencies.