Burning the Koran

[photon]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I do understand(as Azure pointed out) that the people behind the mosque weren't trying to be offensive whereas these Christains almost certainly are.

It's not a mosque, it's a community center, only two of the 13 floors have space for prayer.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

But trying to or not the people behind this mosque have and are offending millions of people by their choice of location.

The people who it offends are the same 20% of Americans that think Obama is a secret Muslim, and they're going to be offended until permits to build any mosques are denied in all the US (as one leader of a religious group in all this called for). Morons are out there, and they'll always be offended because they aren't rational. Who cares what they think.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

And just like these christians their lack of empathy betrays their hearts.

They've already changed the name of the thing in response to people's unfounded and irrational criticisms, so much for no empathy.

Why should a community center with Jews and Christians on the board express empathy for people harmed by someone else by stopping their plans to build a basketball court and cooking school?

Muslims died on 9/11 too.

This "ground zero mosque" thing is completely manufactured tempest in a teapot.

[_Q_]

I think I want to burn some Bibles on September 11th. Not infront of the Calgary Muslim Centre, because I'm sure most Muslims would report me to the police and shun me from the Muslim community. However, I might be able to rent a parking lot somewhere... anyone want to join me?

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

You on the other hand made an accusation with one purpose, to insult or discredit someone. It is easy to clear the air, apologize. Instead, you run in circles trying to explain why you made such an insult, twisting things to make it seem like an insult was a logical response.

I'm sorry that I thought you had stopped beating your wife.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by photon

I didn't refer to any specific response, you just said it fell on deaf ears, but I guess now you say it didn't fall on deaf ears since you seem to know of some responses.

Which responses from the group contain accusations of racism and Islamophobia?

Why should the organizers of this complex be responsible to show any empathy? They didn't do anything.

If you say "I hurt" and I say "your a whimp" I may have responded but, have I really heard you? Empathy requires you attempt to understand the persons position. Labeling a person a racist or Islamophobic or just ignorant isn't empathy. It actually is the opposite of empathy. It is a means of disregarding someone; in effect not hearing them.

The direct accusations of racism and Islamophobia were made by members of the media and on chat boards such as this one. The President addressed their constitution right while refusing to comment on the concerns of thosed opposed to the mosque. The person behind the building is out of country on the governments dime.

The organizers of the mosque should show empathy if their motivation and religion are based on peace. Having done nothing wrong has nothing to do with it.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

The Citizens of "The Greatest Country in the World" should put their money where their mouth is.
Having done nothing wrong has nothing to do with it.

Fixed your post.

[Thor]

The mosque is something they have every right to put up, but the timing and placement of it is obviously not well conceived.

I just picture the reverse happening and it was Christian's or Jews 10yrs after some radicals from their religion did something similar to Muslims and then opened up a religious center a decade later.. There would be riots and chaos.

But having said that, the ground zero mosque debate has gone off its rails and is really doing what we expected when the first hint of controversy came up; divide and stir up religious anger, frustration, mistrust, etc..

As for this particular small church burning books, well he's an idiot and his congregation are also morons for going along with a horrible horrible idea. Whats much more frustrating to me is the amount of time and coverage they get since its basically a tiny group that isn't representing many people.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

If you say "I hurt" and I say "your a whimp" I may have responded but, have I really heard you? Empathy requires you attempt to understand the persons position. Labeling a person a racist or Islamophobic or just ignorant isn't empathy. It actually is the opposite of empathy. It is a means of disregarding someone; in effect not hearing them.

The direct accusations of racism and Islamophobia were made by members of the media and on chat boards such as this one. The President addressed their constitution right while refusing to comment on the concerns of thosed opposed to the mosque. The person behind the building is out of country on the governments dime.

The organizers of the mosque should show empathy if their motivation and religion are based on peace. Having done nothing wrong has nothing to do with it.

Should the critics of the centre not also have empathy for those who want to build it? I don't hear a whole lot of attempt to understand the argument from that side, either. And if neither side is willing to be empathetic to the other (as seems to be the case), then the way that such disputes are typically resolved is based on who has the legal/constitutional right on their side, which is in this case rests with the builders.

[Thor]

How does this work in reality, that two religions so at odds which each other in some of the most fundamental ways will ever find a way to not just co-exist but do so well.

In Europe this problem is getting worse yearly, and you keep seeing more radical right parties in Europe gaining more power because of their staunch xenophobic policies and tough words against Islam and immigrants that don't meet with their own views of what their country should be made up of.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

If you say "I hurt" and I say "your a whimp" I may have responded but, have I really heard you?

You've heard, you just don't agree. They've changed the name. They have stuff up on their website. They've spoken. I think they've heard, just because their response isn't the one you want to hear ("we aren't building the facility") doesn't mean they haven't heard.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Empathy requires you attempt to understand the persons position.

Agree.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Labeling a person a racist or Islamophobic or just ignorant isn't empathy. It actually is the opposite of empathy. It is a means of disregarding someone; in effect not hearing them.

Unless what they're saying is racist or Islamophobic, then in fact you have heard them and are responding appropriately.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

The direct accusations of racism and Islamophobia were made by members of the media and on chat boards such as this one.

Um, how is that relevant at all? This was the conversation:

photon: What deaf ear? The group putting up the complex has responded.
Calgaryborn:Are you refering to the accusations of racism and Islamicphobia?
photon: Which responses from the group contain accusations of racism and Islamophobia?
Calgaryborn: The direct accusations of racism and Islamophobia were made by members of the media and on chat boards such as this one.

You were talking about empathy from the group putting up the facility, and then jump to comments made by the media and random people... So if I follow this, the Jews, Christians, and Muslims on the Park51 board are turning a deaf ear to those with concerns because the media and random chat board denizens have accused some of the critics of being racist and Islamophobic?

Not a compelling argument.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

The President addressed their constitution right while refusing to comment on the concerns of thosed opposed to the mosque.

Could be because the opposition is irrational and not worth commenting on, responding to irrationality just feeds it and makes it worse, not better.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

The person behind the building is out of country on the governments dime.

Vague scary sounding insinuations! Solid stuff. I'm sure the Jews and Christians on the Park51 board are still around though.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

The organizers of the mosque should show empathy if their motivation and religion are based on peace. Having done nothing wrong has nothing to do with it.

It's not a mosque, stop calling it a mosque, continuing to do so suggests that you are willing to get the facts wrong in order to make a point.

Lets get this straight, by showing empathy what you are REALLY saying is you want this place stopped, right?

Why should this group stop their plans to "show empathy"? The people who feel upset, the people who would presumably deserve your cries for empathy, are desiring the empathy based on a false premise.

I don't think you care about empathy at all really, it's just a convenient lever to push the point without having to get into the real issue of Islam being a tool of Satan.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

The organizers of the mosque should show empathy if their motivation and religion are based on peace. Having done nothing wrong has nothing to do with it.

Actually I think people should be supporting the building of Park51 to support the Muslim community with empathy in response to the bombing of a Mosque in Florida a few months ago.

Or does the empathy only go one way?

[ah123]

Originally Posted by Thor

How does this work in reality, that two religions so at odds which each other in some of the most fundamental ways will ever find a way to not just co-exist but do so well.

If you look at history, there are many examples of Muslims, Jews and Christians getting along together - Spain (around 1000-1100 AD) is one example that comes to mind. I think the problem today has more to do with the "politicization of religion" than the religions themselves

Originally Posted by Thor

In Europe this problem is getting worse yearly, and you keep seeing more radical right parties in Europe gaining more power because of their staunch xenophobic policies and tough words against Islam and immigrants that don't meet with their own views of what their country should be made up of.

I think this is a snow ball effect of what started in the 60s. In the 1960s, a lot of "guest workers" were brought over from North Africa to work as blue collar workers (steel factories, etc). When the economy went bust in the 70s/80s, there was this whole population of immigrants, predominantly Muslim, which never really "fit in" and caused a lot of friction. I grew up in Belgium and you could really see the frustration growing on both sides (and Belgium at the time was not a very multi-cultural society). When I left 20 or so years ago, the anti-immigrant movement was really coming up (at the time, it was more anti-immigrant).

And I would suggest that this will probably get worse in Europe before it gets better - statements like this

European Christians must have more children or face the prospect of the Continent becoming Islamised, a senior Vatican official has said.

do nothing to make the situation better

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by octothorp

Should the critics of the centre not also have empathy for those who want to build it? I don't hear a whole lot of attempt to understand the argument from that side, either. And if neither side is willing to be empathetic to the other (as seems to be the case), then the way that such disputes are typically resolved is based on who has the legal/constitutional right on their side, which is in this case rests with the builders.

Of course they should show empathy. Why do they need to build it right there? Why not take the land swap and build the center a little futher away with the good will of the nation behid them?

[Kjesse]

A recent article posted on the Calgary Herald's website states this (which doesn't make it true):

Gibbs' comments come amid a swirl of controversy surrounding International Burn the Koran Day, an anti-Islam protest being organized by the 50-member Dove World Outreach Center to coincide with Saturday's ninth anniversary of 9/11.

Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Wh...#ixzz0yuP9x7Eg

50? And they're getting this kind of attention?

Calgaryborn, you should join. They're your kind of people.

[T@T]

I'm all for it!






If they burn the stupid bible right along side it...if not ..it's wrong.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Of course they should show empathy. Why do they need to build it right there? Why not take the land swap and build the center a little futher away with the good will of the nation behid them?

Specifically, how far should it be?

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by photon

Actually I think people should be supporting the building of Park51 to support the Muslim community with empathy in response to the bombing of a Mosque in Florida a few months ago.

Or does the empathy only go one way?

Useing your logic the Jewish community should get a building permit to build wherever they want. Your talking about minor damage on the outside of their building. No lost of life. No months of waiting to see if they will find a portion of some loved one you lost. No permanant changes to your life or your nation's. How does the two even compare?

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Useing your logic the Jewish community should get a building permit to build wherever they want. Your talking about minor damage on the outside of their building. No lost of life. No months of waiting to see if they will find a portion of some loved one you lost. No permanant changes to your life or your nation's. How does the two even compare?

How about the US army setting up chapels in the Green Zone and in the Republican Palace after initiating a war on false premises that led to tens of thousands killed and a couple of million people displaced from their homeland?

[HotHotHeat]

Do religious people honestly not notice how childish the whole idea of it is?

I look forward to the day where religion doesn't exist.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Useing your logic the Jewish community should get a building permit to build wherever they want.

It's not my logic, it's yours I was using. See how silly it is?

The two compare because they are both the same thing, just wildly different degrees.

So 9/11 had thousands of lives lost, that's enough to push the community center back from a few blocks to what, 8 blocks say? And then what, the attack against the Muslim mosque wasn't as big so they can move it 2cm closer to the WTC site.

The whole concept is so bizarre, show empathy for something you didn't do to a group of people who feel wronged based on a flawed premise.

Makes sense in the Islam = Evil world I guess.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Specifically, how far should it be?

I don't know. Another block or two. Where is the land located that was offered in the swap? The place they want to build on right now was damaged by a part of one of the planes. That's too close!