I would think the appropriate reaction is the woman was truly reaching for his gun would be to smack the arm away, or grab the arm. Pushing the woman down after she makes the grab makes no sense to me, especially since they were already walking past her.
Watching the video a few times again my impression is this:
Any well trained cop walking around that area would have noticed her and her obviously disabled walk. The cop walks straight at her, instead of trying to avoid her. He looks like he wants to bowl her over and I'm surprised they didn't make more contact. The cop to the right of the incident also doesn't move particularly far to allow the woman to dodge the cop walking straight at her. The shove afterwards just looks unnecessary and cruel.
Pretty disgusting overall, each time I see it.
Last edited by Flames Draft Watcher; 07-24-2010 at 04:45 PM.
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What I've been saying is that there is not enough evidence to judge. I've provided alternative scenarios of the event (which you are continuing to judge without any audio!), which I've prefaced using the words "if". I'm going to guess Beerfest, that you don't work in a profession which actually performs investigations, because assuming certain facts and reaching conclusions prior to attaining all the information is not a correct thing to do.
Throughout this thread you've demonstrated:
a) an overall distrust of authority
b) assumptions of fact (assuming conversations prior to the incident without base)
c) assumptions of outcomes (if she said this, the police must do this)
This incident isn't nearly as cut and dry as you're trying to make it out to be.
Do you really think we would be hearing about this story if it wasnt caught on camera? Probably not.
The cops walked away hoping nothing was caught on camera and they could just ignore the act they had just committed.
The scenario I describe does not match your narration of events.
According to the video, the cop reacted to the physical contact from the person. If the person was being verbally abusive, it simply puts the incident in a different context.
There is currently no evidence that the woman was being verbally abusive. We DO have evidence that the police officer has personally apologized for his actions and is writing a letter of apology, both unlikely had the woman been uttering threats (a violation of section 265 1b of the Canadian Criminal Code, and a felony).
While the investigation is still ongoing, your hypothesis of what occurred is unlikely to be born out, based on the evidence at hand.
What is more likely to have occurred is that a police officer in a rough neighbourhood thought a disabled woman was a junkie and treated her like crap. This is problematic for several reasons, not least because police officers have a significant amount of power in a situation like this and this incident indicates a sense of entitlement and a willingness to make use of unnecessary force with little provocation.
It's not a severe incident in and of itself, but is perhaps symptomatic of a broader issue in policing: the us-vs-them mentality that exists both in police organizations and in the public.
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There is currently no evidence that the woman was being verbally abusive.
We DO have evidence that the police officer has personally apologized for his actions and is writing a letter of apology, both unlikely had the woman been uttering threats (a violation of section 265 1b of the Canadian Criminal Code, and a felony).
I think we both know that the VPD did the most reasonable marketing approach given the situation. The moment the word "disabled" came into the picture given the stories that the media were running, there is little doubt in my mind that the cop had to issue an apology. It would have been a PR nightmare otherwise. Not to mention it is probably written in VPD policy not to comment on ongoing investigations of this nature.
I never professed to have evidence, but don't use anecdotal evidence to try to draw out a conclusion. The VPD have not officially commented on what the woman said/have not said in the incident.
We've only heard from one party - the alleged victim in this scenario.
Quote:
What is more likely to have occurred is that a police officer in a rough neighbourhood thought a disabled woman was a junkie and treated her like crap.
I think you've nailed down the heart of the issue - the question becomes did they deliberately pick on this person because they thought they were a junkie or did the cop perceive threat because of it?
I usually defend cops, but if they weren't walking three abreast down the middle of the sidewalk like they owned it, and making people walk off the sidewalk to get around them, then the whole thing probably wouldn't have occurred. They had a 'get out of our way' attitude, then when this women couldn't, the attitude just carried over.
You're cops, you do great and very important work. But your just dudes doing your job, like the rest of us.
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AFC, honest question, have you ever been to East Hastings?
If the cops arrested and provided appropriate care to everyone who was on drugs in East Hastings, BC would probably go bankrupt.
Actually I'm a specialised foster parent, most of my foster kids are down town east side native and I know most of the old cops that have unfortunatly retired in the last few years. This is my neighbourhood and I know just what the cops where doing, 'the walk' is a way of enforcing their presence, three abreast and everyone has to get the f out of their way, it sends a message.
The cop is just to young and full of himself to realise that it is as important to police that area with compassion and understanding as it is with force, and don't get me wrong, the cops have to crack heads at times but all this crap does is build a wall between the people that they will have to turn to information and help an hour later.
Bah, reflex action to her going for his gun? If that's the case, he's got the slowest reaction time of any cop I've ever seen; she had time to turn her back and take a couple steps before he put his hand on her back and pushed her away.
That said, I can't even begin to imagine what a crappy job it would be to be a cop in that neighbourhood. I'm not saying it's the case with this cop, but I'd get a pretty cynical view of humanity very quickly.
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Bah, reflex action to her going for his gun? If that's the case, he's got the slowest reaction time of any cop I've ever seen; she had time to turn her back and take a couple steps before he put his hand on her back and pushed her away.
That said, I can't even begin to imagine what a crappy job it would be to be a cop in that neighbourhood. I'm not saying it's the case with this cop, but I'd get a pretty cynical view of humanity very quickly.
Actually generally the opposite is true, over the years most of the cops I knew that worked there liked it, it is one of the few areas that a cop can deal with an issue from start to finish without having to fill in reams of forms and the like. Most of the beat cops describe it as 'real' police work.
It is apparently way preferable to driving around in a car for 8 hours dealing with predominantly rude and demanding middle class a**h***s who object to being stopped from speeding, beating their wives, kids, dogs etc or just getting drunk and acting like a dofus.
if he thought she was going for her gun, the response of pushing her down is inconsistant with such a thought. Not only would he have pushed her down, he would have alerted his colleagues who also would have responded, likely with some sort of weapon drawn.
The cop screwed up and it sounds like he knew he did so. I can respect that he reported the incident immediately and apologized. That's a cop I can live with.
Now as far as that Toronto bubbles clip, that one has my full support for the cops on that one. She was deliberately trying to provoke a response by blowing bubbles towards him. For all we know, she could have had something much more caustic than regular soap in the bubble mixture. I don't have a lot of respect for NDP going out of their way to provoke cops into a physical response. The cop gave her an appropriate warning and she kept it up. She was held accountable.
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I hate cops to the point that i feel no remorse when they die. However, i fail to see anything really wrong with what he did here. If someone tries to walk through a group of these bullies almost anywhere in the world there's most likely going to be some altercation. But this happened in East Hastings, where it really would be hard to tell the difference between someone with cerebral palsy and some aids infested junkie.
This ego maniac is even writing a personal apology letter that he probably isn't being forced to write. It isn't everyday you hear about a cop admitting they were wrong.
Words cannot convey how stupid this post is.
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I'm surprised the cops didn't taze her after she fell to the ground.
The reason cop abuse is sparking more and more anger among people is because it seems to be happening more and more. Now that there are cameras everywhere, the cops are getting caught pulling these stunts more and more.
You're missing the point I'm trying to make. You're making the mistake of breaking every single piece of the video down into an isolated incident, when this isn't the case. I think the audio is key because really without it, we're only seeing half of the real picture.
If the woman was being rude to the officer in question (or crazy) - then all the sudden makes physical contact with the officer - in that case the officer would be justified in knocking her down. Cops have been attacked in similar conditions. If I was a cop and some crazy puts his/her hands on me in that situation, my first reaction would be to push them away from me or to the ground since the first thoughts running through my head would be "I am being attacked".
Cops have a target painted on their back in that neighborhood. As for not helping her up, can't say why they didn't. If she was being verbally abusive at that point, it was probably best to leave her there.
Again, we don't have a full picture to make an accurate judgment.
You really are pushing it, and quite honestly looks like you never even watched the video with some of the stuff you are saying. A woman walking down the sidewalk twitching and looking drunk as hell is a threat? Did you notice each cop weighed about 250 lbs minimum?
There is no way in hell that even with audio that the cop is justified. The fact that he pushed her down and left her there speaks for itself. If you look at the video the other cops don't even notice the lady which rules out the theory that she was uttering anything. The fist instance of confrontation is when they almost ran into each other. If you can't see that from the video than you are obviously pretty biased in favor of the cops.
The video shows a clear picture and if you're hoping for a video with audio to justify the police officer in question then you're going to be waiting a long time. Cop is as guilty as they come. Open and shut case.
Don't leave us hanging....what happened last October?
Would rather not say. It's just such a complicated story. I didn't get arrested or anything, but ...sorry I mentioned it in a way. I just do not automatically put my trust in them anymore. Some of them have more power than is rightf or them, or they're burnt out or something. Or they let ...oh never mind. Sorry.
