Conservatives introduce mandatory sentencing for 5 marijuana plants

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Sure, but then whats the point of legalizing it if your still going to allow it to be something that's uncontrolled. Its still illegal for you to make a living by making a selling booze without being licensed. Personally I have no problems making it legal. But I do have a problem with the idea that it should just become a uncontrolled basement industry. And I really have trouble with people that would make a living selling it or marketing it to minors.

Well, it wouldn't be 'uncontrolled'. The original point I was arguing against was that the government would put huge taxes on it, and that people would have no choice but to pay that. It would be controlled and regulated just like booze, cigarettes, and a ton of other drugs. I would think it would have to be.

With a non controlled model where you just say that smoking dope is ok, anyone can grow it and sell it to anyone else and we won't go after it, then you really encourage organized crime to get involved, your really encouraging it to be sold to anyone.

That's a bit broad... it's not exactly easy to grow it. I don't really see how organized crime would be involved if it was sold at a reasonable price (ie, not taxed to the hilt). The biggest reason organized crime controls drug industries is because their illegal. I'm not saying they should all be legalized... but the facts are, as long as they're illegal, organized crime will be involved. As far as I can tell there's no way to fix that, not through harsh penalties or increased law enforcement. If anything, harsh measures just make the organized criminals more dangerous imo.

If your going to legalize it, you still can't turn a blind eye to a guy who builds a grow op and doesn't submit reports on it, you can't turn a blind eye to someone who decides to make a living on it without A) being controlled based on who he sells to, and B) submitting tax revenue. And C) having no quality control requirements on what is a noxious substance.

If weed at the Mac's cost about the same, what's your incentive to buy from that guy? Where is he going to make his money from? People right now can brew a ton of beer in their garage and sell it illegally, but it's just not worth it; booze is priced lowly enough that is still more convenient to buy legally than illegally.

Obviously there would have to be regulation, I'm not advocating a zero-rules legalization of it. You're almost talking more about decriminilization, where the growers don't get busted, but are still totally unregulated. That's probably the most dangerous option to me... may as well legalize and regulate than just decriminalize.

Sure, on small amounts, but I don't have a right to make booze or cigarettes en mass and sell it. For personal consumption I would have no problems. Where my problem would start are people distributing it to minors, or making undeclared income on it by doing so.

The minor issue is always going to exist with weed & booze, regardless of the legal aspects. And, like booze & cigarettes, it would be illegal to distribute to minors, obviously.

So you enforce it as a commercial crime instead of a criminal crime. If you want to grow and sell pot, then you should require a license and compliance to any rules and regulations that the government deems necessary. It should be treated like Liquor which is a similar substance in that it effects mental state and health. If your going to legalize it then it has to be bought into the light. Treat it like Liquor, tax it appropriately and use those revenues for healthcare, anti drug education, and enforcement against people that try to make it, market it and distribute outside of a prescribed system. People who want it legalized can't have it both ways. Legalization to me means if your caught with personalized amounts on you doesn't mean a trip through the justice system. However distributing and selling it outside of a controllable and survey able commercial system means fines.

Sounds good to me. But if the government over taxes it, then their stuck in the same spot. Legalization, regulation, and moderation in the taxation aspect are all required imo for things to work.

If the govt legalizes, then slaps huge taxes on it, again, where's the incentive for the consumer to purchase legally?

Just like dope intoxication needs to be treated the same way as drinking and driving.

Fair enough... to be honest, I don't see smoking & driving as nearly the same issue. In my opinion (and I haven't researched the facts on this), nearly all impaired accidents are alcohol related, not marijuana related. I've been in countless instances where the driver of the vehicle was stoned, and if anything they drive in a very paranoid maner, slowly and looking all over the place for other cars and people. I also don't think marijuana affects a person's reaction times and thought patterns in nearly as dangerous a way when it comes to driving.

That said, if you're stoned you're 'impaired', by definition, and I can't really defend or advocate for that.

At least with this model, it becomes more revenue neutral, yes you still have to have some enforcement, but at least a system with tax revenues and some fine revenues from illegal operations will pay for the system. You would also reduce jail usage.

Taxes are fine. Excessive taxes are pointless.

However, don't you think that some genius out there would try to sell strains that are of higher potency then government dope, or would try to undersell the government since they wouldn't pay taxes in an underground market? I think you would see illegal growers and dealers remain and business, and those are the people that you would at least initially try to target. Not the stupid 35 year old with half an ounce in his pocket.

Well, the government wouldn't be growing/distributing pot, so illegal growers could not 'undersell' them. Also, I think the black market has been working on potent marijuana for decades... I don't think it's that easy for someone to just 'turn up' the THC content, and if it is, it's already been done a long time ago.

The only way the illegal growers/distributors stay in business is if the government regulates too high a price for people to practically buy it legally.

I really can't subscribe to the legalization of all of it argument, mainly because the harsher drugs cause significant health problems, destroy people both mentally and physically, and even if legalized a person who could buy crystal meth as an example would still eventually become unemployable and would probably have to turn to crime to get his fix.

I'm not necessarily advocating total legalization of hard drugs & prostitution, but as far as I'm concerned, the simple fact is that as long as they're illegal and unregulated, organized crime will rule those industries. Harsh penalties and increased law enforcement don't fix that, and just cost society billions of dollars. It's not an easy situation, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't, society has picked it's poison in this regard.

[Jodester]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Though again, if they raise taxes too much on it, there would be no incentive for people to buy it legally, they'd just keep doing what they've always been doing, buying it illegally. If Beer cost $10/can at the liquor store (due to taxes), and your buddy brewed his own for $0.25/can, you'd be buying from him before the store, obviously. There's a cost vs. convenience trade-off, and right now it is verrrry convenient to buy marijuana illegally at the market price. There would be no point to the government legalizing it just to tax it out of a reasonable price bracket.

This has been my response to everyone talking about legalization. I just get called a stone age thinking conservative (no pun intended).
Really the only people who get the raw deal on grop -ops are the homeowners who rent out their houses and find their value has dropped 25-70% after they have to completely gut the house. The renters usually have made enough money and get a slap on the wrist in comparison to the amount of money to more than make up for their time and lost crop when they get busted, and they have just ruined someone elses life. Trying suing a grow op renter who has not paid taxes in 10 years. No recourse. And i dont think it should be the consequences of renting as i have had that one said to me too many times.
I dont smoke it and dont really care if you do in the privacy of your house.