Karzai Thinking to Join Taliban

[mikey_the_redneck]

I think you are under-estimating what intellegence is capable of Captain, both in the U.S. and abroad. I am surprised considering your military/political knowledge. Osama Bin Laden was not meant to be caught.

Do you know who Zbigniew Brzezinski is Captain? He worked as the national security advisor for the Carter administration. Here is a photo of him talking with Osama Bin Laden in 1979....they must be just having tea.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by peter12

Maybe they just made tinfoil hats. It worked for you.

If this isn't a troll post.......I don't know what is. Thanks for your contribution.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

If this isn't a troll post.......I don't know what is. Thanks for your contribution.

I was being as serious as you!

[mikey_the_redneck]

Here is some info. on "Operation Cyclone" which was a CIA operation to arm and fund the Mujahideen and other groups.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source...oyxkF2oy9V81Yg

Eventually a faction of the Mujahideen would break away and become al-Qaeda....

These are the kinds of things Zbigniew Brzezinski was invloved in. He is still working as an advisor to Obama and is a member of a bunch of political think tanks like the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, and the Bilderberg group......

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

I think you are under-estimating what intellegence is capable of Captain, both in the U.S. and abroad. I am surprised considering your military/political knowledge. Osama Bin Laden was not meant to be caught.

Do you know who Zbigniew Brzezinski is Captain? He worked as the national security advisor for the Carter administration. Here is a photo of him talking with Osama Bin Laden in 1979....they must be just having tea.

Thats not Bin Laden. First and foremost Bin Laden never trained with the Pakistan Army, the nose is different

+ Osama is 6 foot 6 he would tower over Brzezinski

+ Osama Bin Laden has always been fairly gaunt and thin, this guy is stout.

This picture has never been verified.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Here is some info. on "Operation Cyclone" which was a CIA operation to arm and fund the Mujahideen and other groups.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source...oyxkF2oy9V81Yg

Eventually a faction of the Mujahideen would break away and become al-Qaeda....

These are the kinds of things Zbigniew Brzezinski was invloved in. He is still working as an advisor to Obama and is a member of a bunch of political think tanks like the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, and the Bilderberg group......

Osama Bin Laden was not an Afghan Mujahadeen, he was a foreign Mujahadeen, they didn't receive funding from the CIA, they received funding from arab groups. I've stated this a few times. Operation Cyclone is undeniable, it happened, it funded local resistance groups in Afghanistan. The foreigners from the middle eastern countries and Pakistan were not funded by American's Osama Bin Laden said this in a interview with Peter Bergen, as did several members of the U.S. FSO who were attached to Afghanistan.

[CaptainCrunch]

think you are under-estimating what intellegence is capable of Captain, both in the U.S. and abroad. I am surprised considering your military/political knowledge. Osama Bin Laden was not meant to be caught.

The CIA is not infalliable, they have mishandled multiple intelligence operations since the day they were founded. They even admit that their intelligence gathering has been weak.

I think your giving them to much credit based on the fictional interpretation of the all mighty CIA.

In fact the biggest problem with the CIA is that they don't fund operations enough so they don't have proper feet on the ground. They depend too much on other agencies to provide their technical means (which are hugely exagerated). And they're a government department thats highly politicized.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Osama Bin Laden was not an Afghan Mujahadeen, he was a foreign Mujahadeen, they didn't receive funding from the CIA, they received funding from arab groups. I've stated this a few times. Operation Cyclone is undeniable, it happened, it funded local resistance groups in Afghanistan. The foreigners from the middle eastern countries and Pakistan were not funded by American's Osama Bin Laden said this in a interview with Peter Bergen, as did several members of the U.S. FSO who were attached to Afghanistan.

This is what I disagree with. Here is a telling quote from that summary.

"The program relied heavily on using the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) as an intermediary for funds distribution, passing of weapons, military training and financial support to Afghan resistance groups."
"....the ISI armed and trained over 100,000 insurgents between 1978 and 1992. They encouraged the volunteers from the Arab states to join the Afghan resistance in its struggle against the Soviet troops based in Afghanistan."

I believe the money was funneled into ALL of these resistance groups. They were all fighting for the same cause right?


And........about the photo.

That is what you consider stout? The top picture in particular looks like it is Osama for sure. The nose is wrong? Looks like Osama's big honker to me.....and how you can tell height difference from that perspective is beyond me.
If you say they have not been verified then fine. I'm not going to spend my afternoon trying to find proof of that.....but it is pretty obvious that Brezinski had his dirty hands in everything in the middle east.

Have you heard about his book called "The Grand Chessboard"?
Hell, it explains in detail what his ambitions are in the middle east.

"Former National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski publishes a book, The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperatives, in which he portrays the Eurasian landmass as the key to world power, and Central Asia with its vast oil reserves as the key to domination of Eurasia. He states that for the US to maintain its global primacy, it must prevent any possible adversary from controlling that region. He notes: “The attitude of the American public toward the external projection of American power has been much more ambivalent. The public supported America’s engagement in World War II largely because of the shock effect of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.” He predicts that because of popular resistance to US military expansionism, his ambitious Central Asian strategy can not be implemented, “except in the circumstance of a truly massive and widely perceived direct external threat.” [Brzezinski, 1997, pp. 24-25, 210-11] The book also theorizes that the US could be attacked by Afghan terrorists, precipitating a US invasion of Afghanistan, and that the US may eventually seek control of Iran as a key strategic element in the US’s attempt to exert its influence in Central Asia and the Middle East. [Brzezinski, 1997]"

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The CIA is not infalliable, they have mishandled multiple intelligence operations since the day they were founded. They even admit that their intelligence gathering has been weak.

I think your giving them to much credit based on the fictional interpretation of the all mighty CIA.

In fact the biggest problem with the CIA is that they don't fund operations enough so they don't have proper feet on the ground. They depend too much on other agencies to provide their technical means (which are hugely exagerated). And they're a government department thats highly politicized.

I agree that the CIA has been sloppy in the past, but they are not the only intellegence agency out there. There are a bunch of other agencies like the NSA and the Israeli Mossad network for example.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

This is what I disagree with. Here is a telling quote from that summary.

"The program relied heavily on using the Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) as an intermediary for funds distribution, passing of weapons, military training and financial support to Afghan resistance groups."
"....the ISI armed and trained over 100,000 insurgents between 1978 and 1992. They encouraged the volunteers from the Arab states to join the Afghan resistance in its struggle against the Soviet troops based in Afghanistan."

I believe the money was funneled into ALL of these resistance groups. They were all fighting for the same cause right?

The American's saw the foreign fighters as far too radical and dangerous. Direct monetary and weapons support went to the local Afghan resistance fighters not to the foreign fighters.

The ISI has always played games especially in dealing with the extremists. I have no doubt that the ISI probably did support the foreign Mujahadeen just like they supported the Taliban until that bit them in the ass.

The ISI has worked counter to American interests in the region far more then they've worked in harmony.

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

And........about the photo.
That is what you consider stout? The top picture in particular looks like it is Osama for sure.
If you say they have not been verified then fine. I'm not going to spend my afternoon trying to find proof of that.....but it is pretty obvious that Brezinski had his dirty hands in everything in the middle east.

Osama Bin Laden is between 6-5 and 6'6 and is estimated to weigh 160 pouds. He's always been nearly skelatal. first and foremost that man is not 6'6. he's not clost to that weight to height ratio. Bin Laden wouldn't wear a Pakistani Army Uniform with what looks like ariborne qualification.

The photo is not certified as real. I don't believe that is Bin Laden, the nose and facial features are different.

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Have you heard about his book called "The Grand Chessboard"?
Hell, it explains in detail what his ambitions are in the middle east.

"Former National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski publishes a book, The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperatives, in which he portrays the Eurasian landmass as the key to world power, and Central Asia with its vast oil reserves as the key to domination of Eurasia. He states that for the US to maintain its global primacy, it must prevent any possible adversary from controlling that region. He notes: “The attitude of the American public toward the external projection of American power has been much more ambivalent. The public supported America’s engagement in World War II largely because of the shock effect of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.” He predicts that because of popular resistance to US military expansionism, his ambitious Central Asian strategy can not be implemented, “except in the circumstance of a truly massive and widely perceived direct external threat.” [Brzezinski, 1997, pp. 24-25, 210-11] The book also theorizes that the US could be attacked by Afghan terrorists, precipitating a US invasion of Afghanistan, and that the US may eventually seek control of Iran as a key strategic element in the US’s attempt to exert its influence in Central Asia and the Middle East. [Brzezinski, 1997]"

No I'll read the book. You have to remember that when he published his book there were a few well known facts. Afghanistan was considered a mass staging ground for multiple terrorist groups due to the numerous training centers there. The world was already moving towards terrorism paranoia due to events like the bombing of the world trade center, and other terrorist actions. Logic dictates that eventually those malignant training centers would be linked to terrorist activities.

so he's right, gaining control of the middle east at some point due to a terrorist action would in his mind have to happen.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

I agree that the CIA has been sloppy in the past, but they are not the only intellegence agency out there. There are a bunch of other agencies like the NSA and the Israeli Mossad network for example.

NSA is signals intelligence and satellite, they do encyption work and are supposed to share information. They also interpret that data. But as I've pointed out before, they are not a field agency. Sat technology has been greatly exagerated and it can't cover every area of the world at once. Signals intelligence works but communication technology that the Taliban used was curtailed after Bin Laden smartened up and stopped using sat radios and long range UHF/VHF and went to a courier system.

Its kind of funny that you talk about Missad, as they've formed a relationship with the Pakistani ISI and mostly depend on them to gather information in Afghanistan.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The American's saw the foreign fighters as far too radical and dangerous. Direct monetary and weapons support went to the local Afghan resistance fighters not to the foreign fighters.

The ISI has always played games especially in dealing with the extremists. I have no doubt that the ISI probably did support the foreign Mujahadeen just like they supported the Taliban until that bit them in the ass.

The ISI has worked counter to American interests in the region far more then they've worked in harmony.

Okay...so perhaps Bin Ladens' foreign fighters didn't recieve direct support, but I think they did indirectly through the ISI. It is hard to know where the money trail goes for sure. It just makes more sense to me that you would want everyone armed to the teeth to defeat the Russians.....

I don't think that America cared about how radical these people were back then. The idea was to sucker the Russians in.......job well done.

And I agree with you about the ISI. I believe there were claims that the ISI wired money to the 9/11 hijackers in advance of the attack.

[ynwa03]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

The Taliban was harbouring Osama Bin Laden. They refused to hand the man responsible for the attack (and attacks in the past) over, whether they could or not, and they paid the price. Next time, don't let terrorists live under your nose and cut deals with them. It's pretty simple. The US is still there for a multitude of reasons, some humanitarian -- although you won't allow me to bring that up, apparently -- others strategic. War is multi-faceted. You're not the only one to believe what NATO is doing is not roses and sunshine, but there isn't some Bourne Identity conspiracy going on, either.

Osama Bin Laden has said on many separate occasions he wanted a war with the United States. He knew what he did would enrage Bush. He knew, in war, fighting in country you are intimately familiar with and have fought wars in the past on, is supremely beneficial. He wanted the U.S. in Afghanistan because he knew what he could do there -- just like what he helped do against the Soviets. Osama Bin Laden knew the United States inside of a Muslim nation would raise the ire of many radical Muslims across the world, and, funny enough, those closest to Afghanistan itself. He didn't give a rat's ass about the Taliban, and wanted to create the appearance of a Crusade.

Bin Laden knew what he was doing. You give far too much credit to there being some all-knowing NATO and United States power, and far too little to Osama Bin Laden and his inner council. He's clearly a capable war-leader, and knew far more about insurgency than the United States did on the day of invasion. He new what would happen.

And dismissing proof I give you out of hand does not make it any less valid; it simply shows how entrenched you are on your own belief.

Yeah i think you're giving far too much credit to a man who is apparently an outcast from his family, living in mountains in a backward and barbaric country. Taliban were hardly harbouring anyone. Like i said, they asked for proof and the US had none, and has none to this day besides a controversial video tape. Bin Laden himself has said he was not responsible. Like i said it has been reported in western media:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34440,00.html

Fox News has reported it, for the love of god.

As for war being multi-faceted, do you really think any part of the NATO mission includes the well-being of Afghans? I'm not talking about the soldiers on the ground. I'm sure there are some who genuinely care. I'm talking about the higher ups.

It's much more realistic to give credit to an 'all-knowing NATO and US power' than to say that Bin Laden and his 'council' orchestrated one of the biggest attacks on American in history. All from the caves of Afghanistan.

And for the record, i'm not dismissing any of your proof because you have not given any. All you have stated is what the official government stance would have you believe.

[ynwa03]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

I think you've seen too many mission impossible or james bond movies.

I really love replies like this. It's funny how earlier in the thread Afghanistan was called barbaric for marginalizing people who didn't toe the popular political line. Yet, it's ok to dismiss someone's thought out opinion over such an important topic so ridiculously.

I realize you weren't the one who made the barbaric reference, but it's still interesting to point out.

[puckluck]

I am in no way trying to say this article is 100 percent correct and it's from Wikipedia so take it with a grain of salt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegat...sama_bin_Laden

[Azure]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Here is some info. on "Operation Cyclone" which was a CIA operation to arm and fund the Mujahideen and other groups.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source...oyxkF2oy9V81Yg

Eventually a faction of the Mujahideen would break away and become al-Qaeda....

These are the kinds of things Zbigniew Brzezinski was invloved in. He is still working as an advisor to Obama and is a member of a bunch of political think tanks like the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, and the Bilderberg group......

Yeah, and? That operation was so successful that it won the hearts and minds of the Afghan people.

The problem was when they started asking for help to rebuild their country the US turned their backs. Which is pretty typical for the politicians serving in the US government.

I still don't see your point though.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Iraq was invaded because they "harbor terrorists" and have "weapons of mass destruction".........which was all a media/government fabricated lie to sell the war to Americans..

Harbored terrorists? No
Actively engaged in paying the families of Palestenian suicide bombers? Yes
Did not account for the destruction of KNOWN WMD's according to over a dozen UN secuirty council resolutions? Yes

Funny how your wording does exactly what you accuse the American government of.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Here is some info. on "Operation Cyclone" which was a CIA operation to arm and fund the Mujahideen and other groups.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source...oyxkF2oy9V81Yg

Eventually a faction of the Mujahideen would break away and become al-Qaeda....

These are the kinds of things Zbigniew Brzezinski was invloved in. He is still working as an advisor to Obama and is a member of a bunch of political think tanks like the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, and the Bilderberg group......

You are aware that that all of that was done because the groups you speak of were fighting an invasion by communist Russia right? Cold War? Heard of it?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

I think you are under-estimating what intellegence is capable of Captain, both in the U.S. and abroad. I am surprised considering your military/political knowledge. Osama Bin Laden was not meant to be caught.

Do you know who Zbigniew Brzezinski is Captain? He worked as the national security advisor for the Carter administration. Here is a photo of him talking with Osama Bin Laden in 1979....they must be just having tea.

Oh come on now. This is nonsense. Spend five seconds on wikipedia and you'll know that bin Laden was born in 1957. Does that guy look like he's 22 years old?

But if you do insist... Where is that uniform from? He must have been a hell of a soldier to have all those decorations and the vaunted "Upside Down Turkey Award" at such a tender age.

My guess is he got 'em fighting in the Six Day War, when he was 10.

I shouldn't be so snarky, but I mean come on, you don't exactly have to be Mike Hammer to figure this out.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Oh come on now. This is nonsense. Spend five seconds on wikipedia and you'll know that bin Laden was born in 1957. Does that guy look like he's 22 years old?

But if you do insist... Where is that uniform from? He must have been a hell of a soldier to have all those decorations and the vaunted "Upside Down Turkey Award" at such a tender age.

My guess is he got 'em fighting in the Six Day War, when he was 10.

I shouldn't be so snarky, but I mean come on, you don't exactly have to be Mike Hammer to figure this out.

Awesome thanks Rouge