House passes Senate health care bill

[amorak]

Originally Posted by valo403

Except for the fact that it happens everywhere, just replace FOX/CNN with whichever politically slanted news source is present in the particular country.

True, I guess because of America's far reaching newsmedia, it's just more apparent there.

Anyways, i hope Americans grow to accept a national healthcare program, so that they can start to live as long as Canadians.

[Pastiche]

Originally Posted by amorak

America is one of the only places in the world where you can find people defending their opinion to the determent of all others, when all they know about their view point (and the other side's) is a CNN or FOX News soundbyte...

Uhh have you read the political threads on this very board?

[amorak]

Originally Posted by amorak

True, I guess because of America's far reaching newsmedia, it's just more apparent there.

Anyways, i hope Americans grow to accept a national healthcare program, so that they can start to live as long as Canadians.

[amorak]

Americans as a populace spend $7,290 per person out of their own pocket for health care every year, but only live 78 years on average

Canadians spend $3,895 per person in mostly extra tax dollars and live 81 years on average.

I don't understand the opposition to a Canadian-style system in America - A graph like this accurately shows you that:

1) Regardless of where the money is coming from, be it your own pocket or in the form of increased taxes, you are paying twice what a Canadian pays

2) We pay near half of what an American does, on average, for healthcare, and we live 3 years longer. The macro-level test of a healthcare system is average life expectancy.

If I was American, be it Republican, Democract, or Hillbilly, I would want a social medicine program - It makes fiscal sense and it makes moral sense.

[Locke]

I'm moving to Switzerland.

[amorak]

Originally Posted by Pastiche

Uhh have you read the political threads on this very board?

Originally Posted by amorak

America is one of the only places in the world where you can find people defending their opinion to the determent of all others, when all they know about their view point (and the other side's) is a CNN or FOX News soundbyte...

....

[amorak]

Originally Posted by Locke

I'm moving to Switzerland.

Why not Japan, they have the highest life expectancy on that chart...

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by amorak

Why not Japan, they have the highest life expectancy on that chart...

Have you seen Japanese Hockey?



I still don't understand Americans, watching the republicans fight this bill tooth and nail is like watching your ######ed cousin try to dry hump a cactus.

Its painful, awkward, and there is no logical reason why you should be doing it.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by amorak

Why not Japan, they have the highest life expectancy on that chart...

Cant use chopsticks.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

He said he would get it done and he got it done.

Now I assume the Senate needs to pass this.

Strange that the bill says it "forces" everyone to buy insurance. I guess that is the American way now.

The Senate has already passed it. Now it goes to conference, then Obama signs it into law.

This was a much harder sell than Bush's little "tax cut"--so in terms of a domestic agenda, Obama has now achieved more in his first term than Bush did in two. Bush lowered the bar, but Obama has now finally cleared it. He has a way to go before he will be remembered as a great president (you do have to be a lot better than "a little bit better than the worst president in history"), but he's at least moving in a good direction.

However, this bill is indeed a watered-down half measure, in the end. It does put band-aids on some of the problems, but it does so in a way that because it doesn't reform the billing structure in the U.S., is needlessly costly.

The chart somebody posted above illustrates with perfect clarity the major problem with U.S. health care. It's too expensive, and too much money is being funnelled from public purses and the poor into the pockets of a profiteering health care industry.

Really, this whole thing was a battle between two factions: one of them was completely beholden to insurance companies, the other one was slightly less beholden to insurance companies. The "slightly less bought-and-paid-for" faction won. I guess that's a good thing, if I have to choose a side.

[CaptainCrunch]

Its the old saying, if your going to do something, just do it and screw the consequences.

I don't know if this bill is the solution to the problem.

I think its going to effect the U.S. deficit in a time when they can't afford to increase it.

I don't think I like the mechanics of how it works.

If I understand it correctly, health insurance becomes mandatory, you can either buy private or fall under Obama care. So your still going to be paying pretty outrageous health care premiums.

If you can't afford it, then the government will subsidize it which means increased taxation across the board in a time of deficit.

if you still don't buy it your either paying a fine or going to jail.

The program starts forcing corrections of the funds immediately but the insurance mechanics don't change for 4 years.

The bill doesn't do anything to effect the infastructure problems at the sharp end of the crisis.

The government as part of this bill seems to get more say in who gets student loan money and who doesn't, so the concept of universal education is probably going to go out the window.

While I won't call this bill a fail, it does seem like a half-arsed poorly thought out compromise document.

[RedHot25]

Incremental change versus change of leaps and bounds is all.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by amorak

Americans as a populace spend $7,290 per person out of their own pocket for health care every year, but only live 78 years on average

Canadians spend $3,895 per person in mostly extra tax dollars and live 81 years on average.

I don't understand the opposition to a Canadian-style system in America - A graph like this accurately shows you that:

1) Regardless of where the money is coming from, be it your own pocket or in the form of increased taxes, you are paying twice what a Canadian pays

2) We pay near half of what an American does, on average, for healthcare, and we live 3 years longer. The macro-level test of a healthcare system is average life expectancy.

If I was American, be it Republican, Democract, or Hillbilly, I would want a social medicine program - It makes fiscal sense and it makes moral sense.

The difference is "you" dont get better care but that on average everyone gets slightly better care.

In Canada you go in to a centralized clinic location, wait a few hours to see the doctor that is working today say you have a tweaked back they tell you nothing they can do and just to get some rest. At most he prescribes some Tylenol 4 which you have to go to a different location to find a pharmacy and pay for it. And that is after waiting X hours to see the doctor.

In the US, you go to a clinic which is much closer to where you are, pay $135US and a doctor gives to a cortizone and morphine shot and you are out of the doctors office within 45 minutes total. 35 of those minutes are you grilling the doctor of the safety of the cortizone and morphine shot because your doctor in Canada never once suggested that after 10+ times of going to one yet in the US where you are on vacation that is the first thing he suggests.

And what do you know, for free you get the type of service you would expect with the price tag of free. And with $135 you get something completly different that actually solves your immediate problem and you wonder what everyone on American TV bitches about.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

The difference is "you" dont get better care but that on average everyone gets slightly better care.

In Canada you go in to a centralized clinic location, wait a few hours to see the doctor that is working today say you have a tweaked back they tell you nothing they can do and just to get some rest. At most he prescribes some Tylenol 4 which you have to go to a different location to find a pharmacy and pay for it. And that is after waiting X hours to see the doctor.

In the US, you go to a clinic which is much closer to where you are, pay $135US and a doctor gives to a cortizone and morphine shot and you are out of the doctors office within 45 minutes total. 35 of those minutes are you grilling the doctor of the safety of the cortizone and morphine shot because your doctor in Canada never once suggested that after 10+ times of going to one yet in the US where you are on vacation that is the first thing he suggests.

And what do you know, for free you get the type of service you would expect with the price tag of free. And with $135 you get something completly different that actually solves your immediate problem and you wonder what everyone on American TV bitches about.

You have a weirdly rosy view of the US health care system. Wait times in US urban centers are far longer than they are in Canada, and doctors are even more overworked.

Not to mention that it costs 700 dollars to get a doctor to put a boot on an ankle fracture. A cortisone injection will cost thousands if you're footing the bill. Most people pay only a portion of that, but they pay for it the rest of the year with their insurance premiums.

The U.S. health care system is more expensive than ours and has worse outcomes. I'm not sure this bill will fix that problem (I suspect it won't) but that's pretty much undeniable.

[DFO]

This seems to be at least a small improvement for US healthcare.

The thing that floors me is the absolute hatred and venom being spewed by roughly half the population running down party lines. Absolutely crazy to see the utter freak out over a perceived tax hike eventhough those same folks get hosed through insurance premiums. I wonder what these same people think a bout that 'little' war effort and who is ultimately on the hook for that bill?

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

You have a weirdly rosy view of the US health care system. Wait times in US urban centers are far longer than they are in Canada, and doctors are even more overworked.

Not to mention that it costs 700 dollars to get a doctor to put a boot on an ankle fracture. A cortisone injection will cost thousands if you're footing the bill. Most people pay only a portion of that, but they pay for it the rest of the year with their insurance premiums.

The U.S. health care system is more expensive than ours and has worse outcomes. I'm not sure this bill will fix that problem (I suspect it won't) but that's pretty much undeniable.

I am just relaying what my Flaming Liberal Oilers fan uncle told us of his experience in Honolulu from January of this year.

Cortizone and morphone shot for $135 at the clinic in Sheraton hotel on Waikiki beach. He wouldnt shut up about it and my Aunt the nurse kept trying to defend the doctors in Edmonton.

It was quite funny.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

In the US, you go to a clinic which is much closer to where you are, pay $135US and a doctor gives to a cortizone and morphine shot and you are out of the doctors office within 45 minutes total. 35 of those minutes are you grilling the doctor of the safety of the cortizone and morphine shot because your doctor in Canada never once suggested that after 10+ times of going to one yet in the US where you are on vacation that is the first thing he suggests.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=112416514

Another survey, by the nonpartisan Center for Studying Health System Change, found that wait times were among the top reasons people with insurance delay medical care or go without it altogether. The center's president, Paul Ginsburg, says long waits are no longer the fault of HMOs skimping on the number of doctors they allow because in most cases they have expanded their networks.

"Today, when you hear about wait times or inability to get into a practice, people tend to not blame the network but to say this is a systemwide problem and needs a systemwide solution," he says.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Its the old saying, if your going to do something, just do it and screw the consequences.

I don't know if this bill is the solution to the problem.

I think its going to effect the U.S. deficit in a time when they can't afford to increase it.

I don't think I like the mechanics of how it works.

If I understand it correctly, health insurance becomes mandatory, you can either buy private or fall under Obama care. So your still going to be paying pretty outrageous health care premiums.

If you can't afford it, then the government will subsidize it which means increased taxation across the board in a time of deficit.

if you still don't buy it your either paying a fine or going to jail.

The program starts forcing corrections of the funds immediately but the insurance mechanics don't change for 4 years.

The bill doesn't do anything to effect the infastructure problems at the sharp end of the crisis.

The government as part of this bill seems to get more say in who gets student loan money and who doesn't, so the concept of universal education is probably going to go out the window.

While I won't call this bill a fail, it does seem like a half-arsed poorly thought out compromise document.

In fact, new spending is negligible for four years. At that point the government would start luring sixteen million more people into Medicaid’s leaky gravy train, and start handing out subsidies to families earning up to $88,000. Spending then jumps from $54 billion in 2014 to $216 billion in 2019. That’s just the beginning.

To be unduly optimistic (more so than the CBO), assume that the new entitlement schemes only increased by 7% a year. At that rate spending would double every ten years — to $432 billion a year in 2029, $864 billion a year in 2039, and more than $1.72 trillion by 2049. That $1.72 trillion is a conservative projection of extra spending in one year, not ten. How could that possibly not add to future deficits?

Link

[Caged Great]

This bill is not great at all really.

However, the opened the door to be able to fix the problems that will come out of the bill at a later date. The major hurdle was getting the door open. Now that it is, it's only a matter of time before a single payer option is passed, but that probably won't be for another 15-20 years.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

The difference is "you" dont get better care but that on average everyone gets slightly better care.

In Canada you go in to a centralized clinic location, wait a few hours to see the doctor that is working today say you have a tweaked back they tell you nothing they can do and just to get some rest. At most he prescribes some Tylenol 4 which you have to go to a different location to find a pharmacy and pay for it. And that is after waiting X hours to see the doctor.

In the US, you go to a clinic which is much closer to where you are, pay $135US and a doctor gives to a cortizone and morphine shot and you are out of the doctors office within 45 minutes total. 35 of those minutes are you grilling the doctor of the safety of the cortizone and morphine shot because your doctor in Canada never once suggested that after 10+ times of going to one yet in the US where you are on vacation that is the first thing he suggests.

And what do you know, for free you get the type of service you would expect with the price tag of free. And with $135 you get something completly different that actually solves your immediate problem and you wonder what everyone on American TV bitches about.

On Friday, I went to emergency in Okotoks in some very serious, gut busting, mind-boggling agony. The missus had to drive me. Within about 10 or 15 minutes I'd had a doctor in front of me, was being injected with anti-inflammatories and was set up with an IV drip loaded with morphine. X-rays followed, although they did not reveal the suspected kidney stone. A few hours later I was fine and out of there. If they hadn't been able to stabilize me, it would have been the whirling light ride to Rockyview in Calgary and a CT Scan.

Ran 10 miles the next morning (with the doctors permission) and had an ultra-sound this morning.

Total cost. Zero.

Still don't know what the problem was, perhaps an infection but the service was fast and professional.

Regarding the USA health care bill, the partisan divide there is really little different than you see here. On both sides of the border you see shrill, bug-eyed fanatics either arguing against "socialized" medicine or, in our case, against any attempt to use some of the benefits free enterprise might bring to our health care delivery log jams.

America is probably better off for this change even if, as one poster already noted, it's hardly the grand change it's being advertised as.

As one of my American friends, who works in a VA hospital, recently noted, if socialized medicine is so terrible why does it work for the American military and members of government, two of the most important institutions in the country?

Obama, it seems, has finally abandoned his ill-considered, milquetoast efforts at conciliation and has decided to be a leader and the person he really is. There are just some people in the world who disagree with you and will never agree with you, no matter how much you talk. This seems to have been a surprise to Obama. Rightly or wrongly, health care is the hill he's decided to live or die on and we will probably see more like it as his presidency evolves further.

On the other hand, this is not a popular thing to be doing by the look of the polls. The timing looks like an effort to beat the shellacking it looks like the Democrats are going to take in November.

As I've noted before, President's sometimes benefit from some rather miraculous economic timing. Obama entered the scene as President at the bottom of an economic cycle and a spot where he could blame pretty much anything he wanted on his predecessor. Since he took office, the stock market is up about 50%, the economy has stabilized, the housing market has stabilized, employment has stabilized, etc, etc . . . . . . all of which, quite frankly, probably has little to do with Barack Obama and more to do with natural economic cycles and the decisive actions of global leaders and central bankers in the months prior to him taking office.

Nevertheless, timing is everything. If he does turn out to be a one-term President, it would be an astonishing development considering the above . . . . . and it likely would have been because of things like this Health Care bill and how it hangs around his neck.

We watch with interest.

Cowperson