How/Why does Tod Button still have a job?

[SoulOfTheFlame]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Why can you include 2nd rounders in your list (Galiardi/Raymond) and I can't?

A mistake on my behalf,

I shouldn't have trusted Wikipedia to be accurate with the draft round numbers. They are late-round seconds, so you're absolutely right. I was also mistaken about Prust being a 2nd rounder rather than a 3rd. Still, can't really call him a steal can we?

[Pastiche]

Hey look, another Flames are bad at drafting thread. It's Monday, a new week!

[koop]

Alright, lets actually dig a little deeper to look at a few of these points you made.

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

- Where they draft, particularly in the 1st round
- How many high round picks they have. In general Sutter has had to use picks to fill out his NHL team while asset-rich organizations like Colorado have been able to do the opposite - stockpile 1st, 2nds and 3rds to fill out the entire pipeline. More bullets in the chamber=more chance to develop NHLers.

Since 2003 the Avs first picks in the draft have came at 63, 21, 34, 18, 14, 50, 3 (29 average) The Flames have picked first at 9, 24, 26, 26, 24, 25, 23 (22.4 average)

2003
Colorado- 8 picks Calgary-9
2004
Colorado- 9 picks Calgary-10
2005
Colorado-9 picks Calgary-8
2006
Colorado-6 picks Calgary-8
2007
Colorado-9 picks Calgary- 5
2008
Colorado-7 picks Calgary-7
2009
Colorado-7 picks Calgary-6
Total
Colorado-55 picks Calgary-53 picks

So Colorado has had 2 more total picks since 2003, has had less first round picks than the Flames, and on average their first pick is later than that of the Flames.

- How many high round picks they have. In general Sutter has had to use picks to fill out his NHL team while asset-rich organizations like Colorado have been able to do the opposite - stockpile 1st, 2nds and 3rds to fill out the entire pipeline. More bullets in the chamber=more chance to develop NHLers.

Maybe you should double check things like this before you post. There are a lot of reasons/factors for the Flames poor draft record, but if you think they are somehow unique in the amount of picks they have had or the location of those picks you should probably compare them to other teams around the league before making statements like that.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by koop

Alright, lets actually dig a little deeper to look at a few of these points you made.


Since 2003 the Avs first picks in the draft have came at 63, 21, 34, 18, 14, 50, 3 (29 average) The Flames have picked first at 9, 24, 26, 26, 24, 25, 23 (22.4 average)

2003
Colorado- 8 picks Calgary-9
2004
Colorado- 9 picks Calgary-10
2005
Colorado-9 picks Calgary-8
2006
Colorado-6 picks Calgary-8
2007
Colorado-9 picks Calgary- 5
2008
Colorado-7 picks Calgary-7
2009
Colorado-7 picks Calgary-6
Total
Colorado-55 picks Calgary-53 picks

So Colorado has had 2 more total picks since 2003, has had less first round picks than the Flames, and on average their first pick is later than that of the Flames.



Maybe you should double check things like this before you post. There are a lot of reasons/factors for the Flames poor draft record, but if you think they are somehow unique in the amount of picks they have had or the location of those picks you should probably compare them to other teams around the league before making statements like that.

Jiri knows that drafting is extremely difficult and not as easy as many here believe. However he is far too apologetic towards the Flames. Their drafting stinks and there's no way you can sugarcoat it.

[SoulOfTheFlame]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Jiri knows that drafting is extremely difficult and not as easy as many here believe. However he is far too apologetic towards the Flames. Their drafting stinks and there's no way you can sugarcoat it.

This is exactly what I'm trying to say.

Why are many so hellbent on defending them in this area?


Of course Drafting is HARD. It's supposed to be HARD. This is why you need excellent people to manage this part of your organization. Which brings me back to the purpose of this thread - Tod needs to go.


Once again... We as fans, should expect better.

[Robbob]

Maybe the late picks have been iffy, but you at least have to give him credit for Giordano and Wilson (now in Colorado). I know Sutter singed them as FA after the draft but I'm sure he got the info from his scouting staff. IMO Giordano is the the type of steal you are talking about.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by koop

Alright, lets actually dig a little deeper to look at a few of these points you made.


Since 2003 the Avs first picks in the draft have came at 63, 21, 34, 18, 14, 50, 3 (29 average) The Flames have picked first at 9, 24, 26, 26, 24, 25, 23 (22.4 average)

2003
Colorado- 8 picks Calgary-9
2004
Colorado- 9 picks Calgary-10
2005
Colorado-9 picks Calgary-8
2006
Colorado-6 picks Calgary-8
2007
Colorado-9 picks Calgary- 5
2008
Colorado-7 picks Calgary-7
2009
Colorado-7 picks Calgary-6
Total
Colorado-55 picks Calgary-53 picks

So Colorado has had 2 more total picks since 2003, has had less first round picks than the Flames, and on average their first pick is later than that of the Flames.

Maybe you should double check things like this before you post. There are a lot of reasons/factors for the Flames poor draft record, but if you think they are somehow unique in the amount of picks they have had or the location of those picks you should probably compare them to other teams around the league before making statements like that.

As a matter of fact I made a similar comparison some time ago with the ACTUAL criteria I mentioned in my post (top 3 rounds, not top 2 as you listed)

2003: Calgary 3, Colorado 1
2004: Calgary 3, Colorado 3
2005: Calgary 3, Colorado 5
2006: Calgary 3, Colorado 4
2007: Calgary 2, Colorado 4
2008: Calgary 3, Colorado 2
2009: Calgary 2, Colorado 4

The Avs have had 4 more picks in those top 3 rounds and since 2003 they have had 6 more. That's 6 more quality prospects that they've been able to add to the pipeline compared to the Flames.

Not sure why you had to be so pissy in your post. At least I'm trying to talk about the issues and outlining my thoughts on it.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Jiri knows that drafting is extremely difficult and not as easy as many here believe. However he is far too apologetic towards the Flames. Their drafting stinks and there's no way you can sugarcoat it.

It's not about being apologetic - it's about understanding the actual reasons behind stuff. The alternative I suppose is just to complain about it instead of actually talking about the issues.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by SoulOfTheFlame

This is exactly what I'm trying to say.

Why are many so hellbent on defending them in this area?


Of course Drafting is HARD. It's supposed to be HARD. This is why you need excellent people to manage this part of your organization. Which brings me back to the purpose of this thread - Tod needs to go.


Once again... We as fans, should expect better.

Again though - you want things to be better but you are refusing to look for solutions beyond firing the head scout. Perhaps there are indeed other factors at work - and even if a new guy was brought we'd end up with the same results.

I guess I'm trying to encourage people to look beyond the all-too-easy answer of pointing the figure at one guy.

[Pastiche]

Colorado drafting Statsny and O'Reilly in the second round stings.

[MelBridgeman]

Don't underestimate the value of player development after a player is drafted. To me that is secret of Detroit's success, that and their young players where brought in and surrounded by some of the biggest names in the last decade to learn from.

I the case of Calgary right now, they have the pieces on the team to be successful, so there is no rush to bring up any prospects unless they really earned it, i think in the long wrong this will be a huge benefit. Calgary also has some depth now in respect to quantity and are now able to take bigger risks in the later rounds. Having said all that, you can always be better.

[mister__big]

It's true that things aren't as clear cut as simply picking the right player. Giving young players the proper environment to blossom is vital as well.

One of the big problems of the Flames is that they have shown an unwillingness to invest the time and patience necessary to develop a player. For instance, Backlund is hardly played while a similar player like Mason Raymond was given plenty of time and opportunities to make the Canucks team last year, and look how that turned out.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Don't underestimate the value of player development after a player is drafted. To me that is secret of Detroit's success, that and their young players where brought in and surrounded by some of the biggest names in the last decade to learn from.

I the case of Calgary right now, they have the pieces on the team to be successful, so there is no rush to bring up any prospects unless they really earned it, i think in the long wrong this will be a huge benefit. Calgary also has some depth now in respect to quantity and are now able to take bigger risks in the later rounds. Having said all that, you can always be better.

Except for one major piece, and that is a young player or 2 being able to step in and perform at a level above their entry level contract. Most successful teams have that and it allows you needed cap flexibility.

[Cactus Jack]

To Sutter apologists and guys like Jiri, every team faces the same probability of bad luck or poor timing. Todd Button has been drafting for 10 years and our drafting and development has been putrid. We all know how shallow and mediocre the list of draftees is. Things have not worked out here a long time for whatever reason so it's time to find someone else. The bottom line is results and we never see any. Todd Button needs to go and, in my opinion, Darryl along with him.

People say we have a lot on the team now, let players develop until the point they earn a promotion. Well, we're 10 years into Button's drafting and nearly 7 with Darryl as GM, at what point do these guys make the jump? For every guy that has (Kobasew, Boyd, Pardy, Prust, Dion), they are either gone or benched.

People say Darryl had nothing in the pipeline and had to go with low risk picks, well, what do we have to show for that? You people that hang your hopes on Nemisz, Irving, Brodie, Wahl and House are the same people that hung your hopes on Ryder, Chucko and Pelech a few years ago. Jesus, what will it take for people to say I'm not seeing any results to believe year 8 of the Sutter plan will be any better than any of the previous 7 in Darryl's apparent 20 year plan? Good lord. These people are paid money to do their jobs aren't doing it, find someone else. Remember, Darryl had no experience when he took over this job (and it shows).

[flambers]

Originally Posted by mister__big

One of the big problems of the Flames is that they have shown an unwillingness to invest the time and patience necessary to develop a player. For instance, Backlund is hardly played while a similar player like Mason Raymond was given plenty of time and opportunities to make the Canucks team last year, and look how that turned out.

I guess I don't understand the example....

Mason Raymond came from the NCAA route. He spent two year's in University then spent 1 year in AHL, then spent 3/4 of another year in AHL.

Mason Raymond is also 4 years older and he is playing in his 2nd full season in the NHL season.

I would think you need to wait another 2 to 3 years before this example even makes sense.

[dirk diggler]

i look at a team like Nashville and they continually find good players and remain competitive.... our drafting needs to get better and perhaps a guy like Kisio would be a nice change as he has done a good job stocking talent albeit for a junior team, or perhaps bring in Pierre "the monster" Mcguire?

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Except for one major piece, and that is a young player or 2 being able to step in and perform at a level above their entry level contract. Most successful teams have that and it allows you needed cap flexibility.

Why does it have to be a young guy? We had that, his name was Phanuef in his first year...look what happens when his contract was up, We had Juice, Cammy, Bertuzzi, Bork, Kipper for awhile, lots of players that Sutter has found at a good price to contribute more then they have been paid. So since there was no "young" guys in the system he found other players to fill those spots. So i am not sure you need only a young guy....eventually Chicago, Pittsburgh, LA eta will run into the same problem...too much money in very few...

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Why does it have to be a young guy? We had that, his name was Phanuef in his first year...look what happens when his contract was up, We had Juice, Cammy, Bertuzzi, Bork, Kipper for awhile, lots of players that Sutter has found at a good price to contribute more then they have been paid. So since there was no "young" guys in the system he found other players to fill those spots. So i am not sure you need only a young guy....eventually Chicago, Pittsburgh, LA eta will run into the same problem...too much money in very few...

Maybe the problem is we are holding on to these guys too long because there are no young players to fill in? Or holding on to the wrong guys? If we had a system producing players, we wouldn't need to bend over for Bourque and sign him for 6 years? It must be tough to negotiate contracts without leverage...
I understand what you and Jiri are saying, but it's very frustrating nevertheless because you have almost no hope in the cap world without draft success. By definition, if you sign players to market deals, you have an average team, and guess what we are? Our only "draft" gems are Giordano and Wilson (who left for nothing), and once White re-signs or leaves, we will not have a single "bargain" outside of Giordano. And that will be overwhelmed by all the "over-market" contracts.
You say you cannot blame Sutter or Button or an "individual", but in the end somebody is ultimately accountable for the development system and for scouting, no? Is it Duane Sutter? The only way to change is to change individuals, or we might as well just save the money and draft straight off the Central Scouting list. It could not have been any less successful...

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Why does it have to be a young guy? We had that, his name was Phanuef in his first year...look what happens when his contract was up, We had Juice, Cammy, Bertuzzi, Bork, Kipper for awhile, lots of players that Sutter has found at a good price to contribute more then they have been paid. So since there was no "young" guys in the system he found other players to fill those spots. So i am not sure you need only a young guy....eventually Chicago, Pittsburgh, LA eta will run into the same problem...too much money in very few...

Because, that formula just isn't sustainable over several seasons. You need good drafting as a necessary fall back.

Case in point - the 2009-2010 Calgary Flames. Too many overpaid/underperforming players, and no 1st or 2nd round pick in the draft because assets had to be used to supplement the talent on the team through trades instead of developing homegrown talent.

Eventually, it catches up to you if you draft poorly.

[icarus]

So does that mean all of our current prospects will suck because they were drafted by Tod Button?