Bad World Jr. for Greg Nemisz

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by 6FeetDeep

IIt's just frusterating when you see the Oilers tanking, and having some good prospects, .

^So let me clarify - you find it frustrating to watch the Oilers tanking to get another high pick. So that's what you would rather see from the Flames?

Ok.

Do you also understand that Hodgson was drafted in a position MUCH higher than the Flames have drafted for years?

Seems to me you should perhaps follow a team that sucks so you can at least by happy about all their neat prospects.

[Knut]

Picking in the high 20's every year is ok for me.

There are multiple ways to build a team. The teams that are consistently at the top of the heap attract better Free agents. Those that are horrible for a few years bring in good prospects.

[6FeetDeep]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

^So let me clarify - you find it frustrating to watch the Oilers tanking to get another high pick. So that's what you would rather see from the Flames?

Ok.

Do you also understand that Hodgson was drafted in a position MUCH higher than the Flames have drafted for years?

Seems to me you should perhaps follow a team that sucks so you can at least by happy about all their neat prospects.

Come on don't put words in my mouth. If you want to make excuses for Sutters poor drafting over the years then fine, But I don't buy the "we were drafting late in the 1st round" argument. Even if you exclude 1st round picks, you see strong teams develop later picks into servicable players. I'm not wanting the Flames to "tank", but I'd like some prospects to be heading in the right direction for the future, because that's how teams are built nowadays, through the draft. But if your happy with Sutters drafting and player development, then really theres no point in debating over it, but personally I think there could be a better job done.

[Orv]

Originally Posted by 6FeetDeep

Come on don't put words in my mouth. If you want to make excuses for Sutters poor drafting over the years then fine, But I don't buy the "we were drafting late in the 1st round" argument. Even if you exclude 1st round picks, you see strong teams develop later picks into servicable players. I'm not wanting the Flames to "tank", but I'd like some prospects to be heading in the right direction for the future, because that's how teams are built nowadays, through the draft. But if your happy with Sutters drafting and player development, then really theres no point in debating over it, but personally I think there could be a better job done.

Call me crazy but I'd say making the WJC team is a step in the right direction.

[Dorkmaster]

Originally Posted by 6FeetDeep

Come on don't put words in my mouth. If you want to make excuses for Sutters poor drafting over the years then fine, But I don't buy the "we were drafting late in the 1st round" argument. Even if you exclude 1st round picks, you see strong teams develop later picks into servicable players. I'm not wanting the Flames to "tank", but I'd like some prospects to be heading in the right direction for the future, because that's how teams are built nowadays, through the draft. But if your happy with Sutters drafting and player development, then really theres no point in debating over it, but personally I think there could be a better job done.

Flames may not have had any top end prospects since Phaneuf but I'd argue that the team is moving in the right direction for drafting. Constant stream of players from the pipeline (Boyd, Prust, Pardy, Nystrom, Moss, McElhinney, Giordano), some guys pushing for jobs like Pelech and Sutter, finally a few guys that are a little further away but with good shots at being NHLers.

I guess Flames could have had more top end prospects over the past 5 years, but it just comes with their draft philosophy. For the past few years its been more important ensuring that the prospects end up as players.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by 6FeetDeep

Come on don't put words in my mouth. If you want to make excuses for Sutters poor drafting over the years then fine, But I don't buy the "we were drafting late in the 1st round" argument. Even if you exclude 1st round picks, you see strong teams develop later picks into servicable players. I'm not wanting the Flames to "tank", but I'd like some prospects to be heading in the right direction for the future, because that's how teams are built nowadays, through the draft. But if your happy with Sutters drafting and player development, then really theres no point in debating over it, but personally I think there could be a better job done.

The Flames have been developing picks into players, and many in the system are going in the right direction.

I don't see how I put words in your mouth - you said it was frustrating to watch the Oilers tank. Perhaps clarify why that is frustrating for you.

[MJM]

Originally Posted by Dorkmaster

Flames may not have had any top end prospects since Phaneuf but I'd argue that the team is moving in the right direction for drafting. Constant stream of players from the pipeline (Boyd, Prust, Pardy, Nystrom, Moss, McElhinney, Giordano), some guys pushing for jobs like Pelech and Sutter, finally a few guys that are a little further away but with good shots at being NHLers.

I guess Flames could have had more top end prospects over the past 5 years, but it just comes with their draft philosophy. For the past few years its been more important ensuring that the prospects end up as players.

The Flames never drafted Giordano, he was a free agent signing.

Going in the right direction? Every player you named is a third or 4th line player. You can't name me one forward in our system that was drafted since 2001 that has shown the ability to be a top 6 player. I'm even starting to question Backlund.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by MJM

The Flames never drafted Giordano, he was a free agent signing.

Going in the right direction? Every player you named is a third or 4th line player. You can't name me one forward in our system that was drafted since 2001 that has shown the ability to be a top 6 player. I'm even starting to question Backlund.

Do the Flames not credit for signing Giordano instead of drafting him?

I would suggest that Backlund, Nemisz were both drafted with the goal to be top 6 players and it's far too early to label them as not being one.

Howse is having a huge WHL year and could be a darkhorse, and I think Mitch Wahl is a possibility as well.

[Torture]

The Flames never drafted Giordano, he was a free agent signing.

I've never understood this type of argument.

Sure, he was a free agent signing, but the Flames still developed him. Is that not an important factor in drafting?

[Dorkmaster]

Originally Posted by MJM

The Flames never drafted Giordano, he was a free agent signing.

Going in the right direction? Every player you named is a third or 4th line player. You can't name me one forward in our system that was drafted since 2001 that has shown the ability to be a top 6 player. I'm even starting to question Backlund.

Meh its a flaw of the Flames, but its easy to miss out on all the good when we just think about just the negatives of Flames drafting. Plus while the Flames haven't drafted the best, they've developed a ton of servicable and useful defensemen. They're pretty good too at taking average forwards in the NHL and pushing them to become better. Ie Huselius and Bourque.

They've been able to identify lots of talent at the defense position and develop them well, plus they've been able to develop servicable bottom 6 forwards which has allowed them to fill the top 6 through trades.

The way they've drafted have allowed them to compensate for their inability to draft high end forwards so far and its worked decently. For sure it'd be best if some were drafted and developed through the system, but it takes time and a ton of luck. Its just whether or not Backlund and Nemisz turn out to be those guys.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by rogermexico

If you end up with an NHL regular outside of the top ten picks in a draft, personally I think you've won.

If you end up with a marginal player, you've lost. At the very least, he needs to be better than a UFA signing at the same salary.

[Caged Great]

Think about all the players that aren't ever good enough to play in the tournament, yet still have very productive NHL careers.

Personally I don't think it matters much that Nemisz didn't have a huge tournament. He's till got 3 years to hone his skills to become a solid NHL player. A small 6 game sample doesn't really make a bit of difference.

[Claeren]

Calgary currently has in its system the top goal scorer in the WHL and the 6th best goal scorer in the OHL.

http://www.whl.ca/stats/statdisplay.php?type=records

http://www.ontariohockeyleague.com/s...p?type=records

I am happy with that.


I think Calgary/Sutter also losses out big time with Ryder and Renaud having the issues they did. Both would be arguably star top6 players and if a given NHL team uses so many draft picks on defensive defenceman, offensive defenceman, offensive forwards, grind forwards, goalies, etc, then Sutter lost two promising finesse forward picks before even talking about pure development issues.

I am not sure what Sutter can do to prevent that or improve on that?

And as much as people may want to slam Nemisz, Backlund, Wahl and Howse compared to all the midget-junior-scorers the Oilers draft they better include the fairly strong record of the Flames Goalie and Defenseman drafting which certainly improves any metric applied to Sutters drafting record. I hear a lot of "discluding all of 'these players' Sutter's drafting sucks..." Brutal logic IMO.



Claeren.

[Patrick]

Originally Posted by MJM

The Flames never drafted Giordano, he was a free agent signing.

Going in the right direction? Every player you named is a third or 4th line player. You can't name me one forward in our system that was drafted since 2001 that has shown the ability to be a top 6 player. I'm even starting to question Backlund.

Langkow - brought in by trading 2 players. One guy who wasnt a legit top 6 and a defenseman who was a #4 guy.

Bourque - trade for a pick

Jokinen - trade for a #2 center (arguably), a 4th liner and a pick

Dawes - waiver pickup

While its nice to develop top 6 guys, the top 6 is easily stocked through trades as well as.

[6FeetDeep]

I think Sutter has done a good job at getting value with his picks that hes traded (not for the Jokinen trade but thats another story) but thats not the point. You cant build a team by trades and free agent signings, and at some point have to develop players into the NHL. With the Flames lack of offensive depth as is Sutter needs to draft some offensive forwards. Yes there is a couple of promising projects, but its no comparison if you put the Flames prospect pool up against most other teams. By the outlook right now most will be checkers. And will little draft picks to look forward too I hope Sutters not killing the Flames future.

[looooob]

Originally Posted by 6FeetDeep

I think Sutter has done a good job at getting value with his picks that hes traded (not for the Jokinen trade but thats another story) but thats not the point. You cant build a team by trades and free agent signings, and at some point have to develop players into the NHL. .

well its partly the point though . Rightly or wrongly Sutter has taken the view that 2nd rounders have more trade value then they do value in returning useful players as picks...as such he has used them to bring in Kipper, Tanguay, Bourque, Conroy, Leopold etc etc

if you don't ever have 2nd rounders, and your first rounders are often late you aren't giving yourselves a lot of ammo to draft elite scorers

I'm not excusing Sutter by saying this, just underlining his approach. It may well be the wrong one, as someone contrary minded could say if he didn't trade all those 2nd rounders , the guys drafted with them would all be scoring forwards on the team now and hence they wouldn't need the Bourques etc via trade

[Nuje]

Originally Posted by 6FeetDeep

I see a whole lot of excuses for Nemisz in this thread, like he was the "defensive" force on that line or Kadri and Hall are puckhogs. Truth is Nemisz was brutal. His skating couldnt keep up to this tournaments pace, and whenever Canada needed a goal, Nemisz was benched off that line and Dejardins put someone else on that line. Put it anyway you want but you couldnt be impressed with him in this tournament. He'll be lucky to be a 3rd line checker just like most of Sutters picks. It's just frusterating when you see the Oilers tanking, and having some good prospects, and the Canucks having Hodgson and other good prospects, and we got virtually no offence and no top 2 picks for this years draft. I hope we win the cup this year because things could turn around quickly in this league.

Edmonton??? Other than Paajarvi, I like our forward prospects better than theirs (I exclude him since his being there isn't a result of great scouting, it's a result of totally sucking), and I think the D and goaltending is objectively better at the moment. Hodgson was also a result of a year of suckage. I like the Canucks forward prospects, but I also think our D is better than theirs. They have Schneider in net, but he's never going to play there with Luongo's deal the way it is.

I wish our scouting was better, but it's not bottom of the barrel.

Originally Posted by looooob

I'm not excusing Sutter by saying this, just underlining his approach. It may well be the wrong one, as someone contrary minded could say if he didn't trade all those 2nd rounders , the guys drafted with them would all be scoring forwards on the team now and hence they wouldn't need the Bourques etc via trade

It fits with Sutter's cap philosophy. Pay for D, in net, and top forwards, and fill the rest out. It's decently effective, and I think if you change the balance, and move some money from D to forward, it may be even better. There is one thing the Flames don't have that some teams have...overpaid 3rd and 4th liners. No Chris Neils or Samuel Pahlssons here. Pahlsson is an effective player, but a forward for that money should simply produce more. No exceptions. Chris Neil's contract is just a huge joke.

I think that sometimes Darryl's trading down in the draft isn't the greatest idea We had the 17th pick in the draft in 08, although it did have us getting Cammalleri, I just wonder if there was another way to bring him here that didn't have that pick leaving. If the Tanguay trade happened first, then perhaps the Canadiens 1st rounder packaged with something else would suffice for LA. Tough to say, but that 17th overall pick would have been nice. Tedenby, Eberle, Del Zotto, Sbisa were all drafted between then. Perhaps Sutter even wanted one of those guys, and just missed them. Of course GMs talk about who they're taking (that same draft, Buffalo traded up one spot...ONE...to draft Tyler Myers). The biggest problem is that Sutter's penchant for getting rid of 2nd rounders doesn't give him much trading up power if a guy he covets is hanging a few spots above him, and it even neccesitates a trade-down if Sutter feels he needs that extra pick. While it remains to be seen where Teubert goes from here, Myers and Doughty would look really good on LA right now...funny story, the 09 3rd rounder Buffalo gave to LA to trade up that spot became our very own Ryan Howse. Funny too, as you see Sutter trading up in later rounds, but rarely in the 1st. I think it's something that he should explore sometimes.

[Rhetts_the_Best]

Originally Posted by RockOnRoberts

With Kadri on his line, I am surprised Nemisz even touched the puck.

What evidence do have that suggests kadri is a puck hog??

Is it to with him being a playmaker?
cause that would make sense

[6FeetDeep]

Originally Posted by Nuje

Edmonton??? Other than Paajarvi, I like our forward prospects better than theirs (I exclude him since his being there isn't a result of great scouting, it's a result of totally sucking), and I think the D and goaltending is objectively better at the moment. Hodgson was also a result of a year of suckage. I like the Canucks forward prospects, but I also think our D is better than theirs. They have Schneider in net, but he's never going to play there with Luongo's deal the way it is.

I have no problem with our defence prospects, but no game changers more than likely depth guys and the Flames defence is set as is because you wouldnt want any more salary back there than there is. These are just 2 examples of teams in our division who IMO have better prospect pools than the Flames even though you don't seem to think so. Who knows how prospects games will translate to the NHL though. It almost seems as Oiler fans would rather the team just suck miserably so they get a shot at Taylor Hall which is sad in my eyes. But the Flames are going to need some young forwards coming in the line-up in the next couple years ready to make an impact. To be succesfull teams need to be getting value on players on their entry-level contracts and this forward core is getting older. All the teams in our division have prospects looking to make an impact (other than Minnesota) and all have 1st round picks this up-coming draft

[Orv]

All I know is that I want the Flames drafting 30th this year.