Tipping Policy II

[Bleeding Red]

Originally posted by Nabber@Feb 9 2005, 12:33 AM
This is a neat topic as I have been stuck in the restuarant industry for way to many years because of the extra money earned from tips. My opinion may be biased but I feel we tip to receive good service. Using the carryout grocery person as an example is not fair as how can you really receive bad service from someone carrying out your groceries, it's not like they'll drop your bags if you're known as a bad tipper. But as a server if I'm not getting a tip from a table whats the point of wowing your table by getting refills quicker, or checking back to see if foods tasting ok, personally I'd be in the back reading the newspaper til they're done eating. I tip my hairdresser if they do a good job on my hair, if I order pick up I will tip if my food is made on time, therefore tips ensure better service.

In the grocery Bag-Boy case there is no epectation that someone will help a customer out nor is the an obligation on the bag-boy's part. The bag-boy is going out of his way to help you and there fore deserves a tip.

[V]

In the grocery Bag-Boy case there is no epectation that someone will help a customer out nor is the an obligation on the bag-boy's part. The bag-boy is going out of his way to help you and there fore deserves a tip.

I disagree. It's store policy (in any retail outlet that I know of) to treat the customer as king (or queen). As part of his job, the bag boy, and anyone else working in the store, must do anything in his power to make the customer want to come back. If that involves bringing groceries to the car, then the bag boy is obligated to do so. It's his job.

[albertGQ]

Originally posted by Dominicwasalreadytaken@Feb 9 2005, 08:57 AM
In the grocery Bag-Boy case there is no epectation that someone will help a customer out nor is the an obligation on the bag-boy's part. The bag-boy is going out of his way to help you and there fore deserves a tip.

I disagree. It's store policy (in any retail outlet that I know of) to treat the customer as king (or queen). As part of his job, the bag boy, and anyone else working in the store, must do anything in his power to make the customer want to come back. If that involves bringing groceries to the car, then the bag boy is obligated to do so. It's his job.

Isn't it restaurant policy to do the same to guests who dine there? Why do servers get tips but not bag boys then? I know its how society works, but that doesn't make it right.

[V]

That's exactly where I'm coming from. Neither should be tipped.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally posted by Dominicwasalreadytaken@Feb 9 2005, 03:57 PM
In the grocery Bag-Boy case there is no epectation that someone will help a customer out nor is the an obligation on the bag-boy's part. The bag-boy is going out of his way to help you and there fore deserves a tip.

I disagree. It's store policy (in any retail outlet that I know of) to treat the customer as king (or queen). As part of his job, the bag boy, and anyone else working in the store, must do anything in his power to make the customer want to come back. If that involves bringing groceries to the car, then the bag boy is obligated to do so. It's his job.

Sure, that's great in theory and philosophy.

However, that is like saying a shoe saleperson has to massage the feet of a customer is s/he asks.

I feel the job ends at the door. I am under no job obligation to be nice to a customer in the parking lot as I leave.

Also, I do not think the employer expects the bag-boy to leave the store to please a customer.

[V]

I have a hard time believing that. If that were the case, why would the cashier ask me if I would like a hand getting the groceries to my car? Why would they set themselves up for that? Would she offer me a service the bag boy can provide, and then tell me it should cost extra? I don't think so. If it was not an obligation for the bag boy, it should not be offered.

[Hot_Sauce]

Originally posted by Dominicwasalreadytaken@Feb 9 2005, 09:41 AM
That's exactly where I'm coming from. Neither should be tipped.

Still laughing my arse off on the 'neither should be tipped' comments.

If you aren't tipping when you go out I sure hope you don't choose the same spots all the time. I've been in the business for twenty years so I can relate some truths.

You'd be amazed at how a decent waiter can punish regular cheap tipping diners and reward those that tip well. Good tippers get large table reservations at the last minute; won't get the last glass of beer out of an old empty keg; don't have to wonder if the tomato on their salad bounced off the floor and back onto their plate; get promo's and the odd drink on the house thrown at them; man I could go on and on how I reward my generous regulars. The regular non-tipping or sub 15% crowd still get basic service and thats about it. Why bust yourself for them?

The whole point is rubbish: If you are in decent retail job and are good at it you get a base wage plus commission. The money can be decent. I know guys in the electronic field (Visions,etc) and Men's clothes that make awesome money. Why? They also push the good service. My brother bought some fairly expensive home theatre gear from Future Shop and was treated very well. Wonder where I went to get mine? Same guy. More commission for him. Same deal with furniture. Bought some leather from Penthouse and got treated very well. Tell all my friends and family to see Greg. More commission for him. Call it commission or call it a tip. Whatever. Same thing.

I know that other retail can suck (record stores and Staples come to mind). If you learn the retail business well in those places then maybe apply your skills in shops that pay the commission?

I like the system and I think it works quite well. For the most part of this thread it seems like a good chunk are too cheap to tip or are p*ssed that they don't get tipped in their jobs?

Of course I could be wrong.

[V]

I like the system and I think it works quite well. For the most part of this thread it seems like a good chunk are too cheap to tip or are p*ssed that they don't get tipped in their jobs?

Of course I could be wrong.

In my case, yes you are wrong. I do tip when I eat out. I don't like the fact that it's part of society, but I'd rather tip than live in fear that some waiter might spit in my food. What a stupid system.

I don't get tipped in my job. But I don't expect to. If I do my job well I get a bonus from my employer. He's the one that decides how much I'm worth. Not my clients.

From what I've read in here, the people that are saying they have a problem with tipping aren't being cheap, or envious. Ama, for example, doesn't think it's right that customers determine how much someone is worth. That's the employer's job.

I do find it funny that the people in the industry on this board have so quickly jumped to the conclusion that someone believes tipping is wrong because they are cheap or jealous. Take a read at the arguments before you make that assumption.

The whole point is rubbish: If you are in decent retail job and are good at it you get a base wage plus commission.

You are only re-inforcing my point with this argument. If you work a good retail job your employer gives you a good commission. Your employer. Not your clients. So why does the restaurant business have to be any different than any other business? Why do I have to decide how much a waiter is worth? How the hell does that become my job, when there are people (aka: the employer) infinitely more capable of determining their worth than I am?

[InTheSlot]

It's simple, and you're pretty much right, the more money you pay the waiter/waitress, the less the restaurant has to pay their employee for a salary.

It's the perfect plan, and the sole reason why owning a restaurant is a great industry to get into.

[InTheSlot]

Originally posted by Bleeding Red+Feb 9 2005, 09:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bleeding Red @ Feb 9 2005, 09:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Dominicwasalreadytaken@Feb 9 2005, 03:57 PM
In the grocery Bag-Boy case there is no epectation that someone will help a customer out nor is the an obligation on the bag-boy's part. The bag-boy is going out of his way to help you and there fore deserves a tip.

I disagree.# It's store policy (in any retail outlet that I know of) to treat the customer as king (or queen).# As part of his job, the bag boy, and anyone else working in the store, must do anything in his power to make the customer want to come back.# If that involves bringing groceries to the car, then the bag boy is obligated to do so.# It's his job.

Sure, that's great in theory and philosophy.

However, that is like saying a shoe saleperson has to massage the feet of a customer is s/he asks.

I feel the job ends at the door. I am under no job obligation to be nice to a customer in the parking lot as I leave.

Also, I do not think the employer expects the bag-boy to leave the store to please a customer. [/b][/quote]
Are you kidding me?!

Two years ago I worked for a local grocery store, and it WAS indeed store policy to help customers to their cars with their groceries if they so desired. We were told specifically not to accept tips. Few people did tip me, but some older folks who probably had a lot of money to burn did offer me money once I was done loading the bags into their cars. Most of the time I refused, but some were persistent so I just gave in after a short time. It was never more than a buck or two....I *might* have gotten 5 bucks once, but I doubt it.


I'm not all in favor of helping customers to their cars, but it definitely was store policy I can tell you that much. If it's a pregnant woman with a cartload of food and some screaming kids around her, or an elderly woman with a walker, that's a different story.

[Hot_Sauce]

Dominic. I never said anything about spitting in anyone's food. I think that fear is unfounded. In twenty years in the business I have never once seen anyone do anything like that. The 'tomato bouncing off the floor' comment was more a metaphor for making sure the best tippers get the best product.

Maybe the commission argument does re-inforce your position or maybe it doesn't. Base commissions are factored into full retail pricing so the cost is directly paid by the consumer. The employer acts only as the middle man. If the commission structure was too low then the salesman wouldn't try as hard to move the product. The customer will only pay so much for the full cost or near full cost item so in essence the customer is partly dictating compensation?

Maybe a commission based or profit sharing based restuarant system would work. Restaurants with the best servers would get the most business and therefore command a higher price per item bourne by the consumer. Those unwilling or unmoved enough to pay the higher resultant prices would end up at places lower in cost and less pleasant and efficient in service.

[albertGQ]

Originally posted by InTheSlot@Feb 9 2005, 12:40 PM
It's the perfect plan, and the sole reason why owning a restaurant is a great industry to get into.

Restaurants and nightclubs have the highest failure rate of any small/medium business

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

I've never seen the 'tipping debate' framed quite this way.

If someone has a problem with the amount of money some servers make thats a personal call I guess - how do you determine worth? That part of the tipping debate is an age old question and fair enough.

The idea that restaurant owners are profiting from the set-up is nonsense though.
Customers ultimately pay the cost one way or another, in any business. The money has to come from somewhere, and if it isn't from the customers then the business goes kaput.

[albertGQ]

Originally posted by Bend it like Bourgeois@Feb 9 2005, 02:38 PM
I've never seen the 'tipping debate' framed quite this way.

If someone has a problem with the amount of money some servers make thats a personal call I guess - how do you determine worth? That part of the tipping debate is an age old question and fair enough.

The idea that restaurant owners are profiting from the set-up is nonsense though.
Customers ultimately pay the cost one way or another, in any business. The money has to come from somewhere, and if it isn't from the customers then the business goes kaput.

UNLESS..............there are servers out there that are competent and are willing to make $8-$10 an hour as a base wage with no tips. I beleive there are many out there that will.

When I was serving and making $150 a night, I would've still served if I made $80-$100 a night

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by albertGQ@Feb 9 2005, 02:50 PM
UNLESS..............there are servers out there that are competent and are willing to make $8-$10 an hour as a base wage with no tips. I beleive there are many out there that will.

Sorry but anyone who is comptetent and over 18 is going to want, and need, to make more than $9 an hour. You won't get anyone to show up for a 2 hour lunch shift for that kind of money.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Feb 9 2005, 10:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Feb 9 2005, 10:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-albertGQ@Feb 9 2005, 02:50 PM
UNLESS..............there are servers out there that are competent and are willing to make $8-$10 an hour as a base wage with no tips. I beleive there are many out there that will.

Sorry but anyone who is comptetent and over 18 is going to want, and need, to make more than $9 an hour. You won't get anyone to show up for a 2 hour lunch shift for that kind of money. [/b][/quote]
Maybe being a 30 year old server isn't an ideal situation. Realistically, I'm sure older, more sophisticated people would be better servers, but it honestly seems like the type of job that should be done by 20 something college students, not adults trying to support families. They make too much... or maybe I don't make enough...

[Cain]

Easy to say that it "should" be done by a certain demographic. Often it is the only job that some people CAN get and still support a family. I don't have a problem tipping so that they can do that.

In fact, I'd rather fund them then some fellow university students that have the job to pay for the beer that they buy.

Anyway...ideal situations rarely occur, and it is reality that shows that many people in the industry rely on it to support themselves and a child often...and it is the best job that they can get.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Agamemnon+Feb 9 2005, 03:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Agamemnon @ Feb 9 2005, 03:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Sorry but anyone who is comptetent and over 18 is going to want, and need, to make more than $9 an hour. You won't get anyone to show up for a 2 hour lunch shift for that kind of money.

Maybe being a 30 year old server isn't an ideal situation. Realistically, I'm sure older, more sophisticated people would be better servers, but it honestly seems like the type of job that should be done by 20 something college students, not adults trying to support families. They make too much... or maybe I don't make enough... [/b][/quote]
Maybe, but like was pointed out, that's the only gig some people can get. If you started when you were 18, now your 30 and the resumé reads "waitress waitress waitress" and there are bills to pay....

And what about those short shifts? People, including college students, aren't going to take 3 - 4 hours out of the middle of the day to go make 18 bucks, less transportation and tax. I know I wouldn't (have).

[Agamemnon]

Maybe, but like was pointed out, that's the only gig some people can get. If you started when you were 18, now your 30 and the resumé reads "waitress waitress waitress" and there are bills to pay....

I hear ya. Seems obvious to me, though, that if the money isn't there, you actually will find employment elsewhere. Truck Drivers, Framers, Plumbers, many different blue collar jobs that aren't that difficult to get into.

I think the fact that the waiting pays so well probably contributes to people relying on it for the families support, don't you? If serving paid 9 bucks an hour, the people who need more would find it in another industry.

You could argue that there is no work in any other industry that pays well for these people, but I think you'd be wrong.

And what about those short shifts? People, including college students, aren't going to take 3 - 4 hours out of the middle of the day to go make 18 bucks, less transportation and tax. I know I wouldn't (have).

Tons of them do. Many waiters/tresses are students, so clearly its not like they wouldn't do it; they do it all the time.

[Cain]

None of those jobs that you listed as examples are as easy to get into as waiting tables. All of those require some other training that is not always supplied and is definitely not free.

I work for the city of calgary over the summer and it costs a buttload of money to get a class 3 license so you can drive big trucks...The city pays for it in certain situations, but not all.

I agree that the fact that it does pay a decent amount is why you see people supporting themselves and a family on it. But I don't find that unacceptable nor surprising...that happens with every job. I have no problem with them making a decent living, because they certainly are not making a killing and living the high life that say...hockey players are. I don't think that hockey players deserve the money they make but...You don't think that servers deserve the money they make but...

I have fewer problems with the amount that waiters/waitresses make than other professions. They usually don't make out like bandits by waiting tables.