Rep. Barney Frank Lays The Smackdown

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I'm sure you aren't saying this, but that reads like you are saying he's pushing this plan so a consulting firm can get some business.

So since that's not it, what do you mean?

Maybe you should ask Vulcan, since he is the one that suggest, without any proof(at least I haven't seen it)....that ALL the people opposing this health care bill, including the blue-dog Democrats apparently, are doing it because they are involved financially. I.E. the same argument Vulcan made time after time when it came to the Iraq War.

Well, apparently Obama and his administration is tied to all of this financially as well, but that is okay....cause they are the 'good guys.'

As for me? I honestly don't care. Considering Obama has basically outright broken his promise in regards to lobbyists and their influence on Capital Hill, its preposterous to suggest that nobody is going to have ties financially to ANY bill they legislate and vote on.

Its also stupid to paint one side as being good and decent, despite or in SPITE of those financial ties, but vilify the OTHER side for THEIR ties, when both are at fault, if there is to be any fault found.

In truth, it would be impossible to walk around Capital Hill and find one Congressman or one public employee who didn't have ties to numerous private entities. Obama was a decently wealthy man before he even dreamed of running for President, and like all wealthy people do, he more than likely invested his money into certain companies or industries that would provide him with a decent return. So obviously, during the course of 4 years, and the hundreds of bills the President has to sign, or veto....he is going to become involved personally.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I don't see Obama and his men being directly paid off like the opponents to health care are.

Proof?

Oh, and not just for the Republicans, but also for the Democrats that initially opposed the original health care bill Congress was working on.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Azure

Proof?

Oh, and not just for the Republicans, but also for the Democrats that initially opposed the original health care bill Congress was working on.

He doesn't need proof.

A. It's an opinion
B. Anything associated positively with President Obama is inherently good and pure.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

He doesn't need proof.

A. It's an opinion
B. Anything associated positively with President Obama is inherently good and pure.

Isn't it possible to just think that Obama is much better than his predecessor (or than his alternate choice, for that matter) without that meaning that we have to anoint him the messiah of American political culture?

I feel like there's a utopia fallacy at work here--like because Obama hasn't instantly fixed every problem, therefore he's garbage.

Personally, I never expected him to fix every problem--nor did I expect to agree with everything he does. I never saw him as anything other than a politician.

This health care thing is turning into a fiasco, much as it did for Clinton, but I think only the stodgiest people can hold an executive officer solely responsible for something that was crafted by a legislative body. Anyone who really knows how American politics works also knows that Obama can't control the details of the health care plan--and unfortunately, the rule that "the devil is in the details" counts double for anything involving health policy.

My expectations for Obama were, frankly, pretty modest. He walked into a difficult job, and was instantly faced with a huge array of Hobson's choices left for him by Bush, who pretty much kicked the can down the road on any number of issues. I did expect that he would be a much, much better president than Bush was or than McCain would have been. So far, I'm not disappointed.

Think of it this way: someone has to have the political courage to take on the third rail that is health care. Obama has tried; that took a lot of guts. It doesn't look like the solution will truly solve America's problems, but it's likely to help, even if only a little bit. I think it's pretty stubborn to keep complaining about it--since he's the only one who wasn't too much of a coward to at least try. Bush would have done nothing. McCain would have done nothing. I fail to see how that would have been better.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Isn't it possible to just think that Obama is much better than his predecessor (or than his alternate choice, for that matter) without that meaning that we have to anoint him the messiah of American political culture?

I feel like there's a utopia fallacy at work here--like because Obama hasn't instantly fixed every problem, therefore he's garbage.

Personally, I never expected him to fix every problem--nor did I expect to agree with everything he does. I never saw him as anything other than a politician.

This health care thing is turning into a fiasco, much as it did for Clinton, but I think only the stodgiest people can hold an executive officer solely responsible for something that was crafted by a legislative body. Anyone who really knows how American politics works also knows that Obama can't control the details of the health care plan--and unfortunately, the rule that "the devil is in the details" counts double for anything involving health policy.

My expectations for Obama were, frankly, pretty modest. He walked into a difficult job, and was instantly faced with a huge array of Hobson's choices left for him by Bush, who pretty much kicked the can down the road on any number of issues. I did expect that he would be a much, much better president than Bush was or than McCain would have been. So far, I'm not disappointed.

Think of it this way: someone has to have the political courage to take on the third rail that is health care. Obama has tried; that took a lot of guts. It doesn't look like the solution will truly solve America's problems, but it's likely to help, even if only a little bit. I think it's pretty stubborn to keep complaining about it--since he's the only one who wasn't too much of a coward to at least try. Bush would have done nothing. McCain would have done nothing. I fail to see how that would have been better.

You pretty much have read my mind on everything here. I don't think anyone has suggested that Obama is infallible. No one is suggesting he will even make it to a second term.

The fact of the matter is that when Obama stepped into office, there were very, very few things going right in this country--and to expect immediate progress from him, and then complaining when he isn't able to enact the "change" promises of his campaign within less than 8 months is just as bad a blindly following everything he says.

He's a politician, the same way Bush is a politician, both Clintons are politicians, the way Sarah Palin is a politician, etc. You can't expect the world from any of them--but I still am glad to see someone in office who is at least attempting to fix some of the many issues this country faces. And I really can't imagine that there are people who honestly believe the health care system, as it stands today, isn't a problem.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Isn't it possible to just think that Obama is much better than his predecessor (or than his alternate choice, for that matter) without that meaning that we have to anoint him the messiah of American political culture?

I feel like there's a utopia fallacy at work here--like because Obama hasn't instantly fixed every problem, therefore he's garbage.

Personally, I never expected him to fix every problem--nor did I expect to agree with everything he does. I never saw him as anything other than a politician.

This health care thing is turning into a fiasco, much as it did for Clinton, but I think only the stodgiest people can hold an executive officer solely responsible for something that was crafted by a legislative body. Anyone who really knows how American politics works also knows that Obama can't control the details of the health care plan--and unfortunately, the rule that "the devil is in the details" counts double for anything involving health policy.

My expectations for Obama were, frankly, pretty modest. He walked into a difficult job, and was instantly faced with a huge array of Hobson's choices left for him by Bush, who pretty much kicked the can down the road on any number of issues. I did expect that he would be a much, much better president than Bush was or than McCain would have been. So far, I'm not disappointed.

Think of it this way: someone has to have the political courage to take on the third rail that is health care. Obama has tried; that took a lot of guts. It doesn't look like the solution will truly solve America's problems, but it's likely to help, even if only a little bit. I think it's pretty stubborn to keep complaining about it--since he's the only one who wasn't too much of a coward to at least try. Bush would have done nothing. McCain would have done nothing. I fail to see how that would have been better.

I never said he was garbage. My post did nothing more than outline why Vulcan didn't need to provide proof of his claim. I did it for him.

I voted for Obama and still have high hopes.

Please don't tell me you are running to Vulcan's defense!

[Azure]

Simply doing something for the sake of saying you did something doesn't mean you're actually doing a good job.

Obama screwed up with the Health Care bill. Congress screwed up(more than Obama did, but nobody cares about Congressional approval ratings)....on the health care bill.

Plain and simple they screwed up.

Now does that mean the Republicans would have done better? No, it surely doesn't, which is why I don't get why so many people fall back to 'lets blame the Republicans'....something Obama himself is also doing.

The Democrats don't NEED the Republicans to pass this bill. So why are we, or Obama, or anyone else going to blame THEM for making the bill fall apart?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

He's a politician, the same way Bush is a politician, both Clintons are politicians, the way Sarah Palin is a politician, etc. You can't expect the world from any of them--

Sadly, Obama got a lot of people to vote for him based on the 'hope and change' mantra he was playing up during the campaign.

No results in the first 8 months would explain why so many independents are now disapproving of him, when they didn't 8 months ago.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

He doesn't need proof.

A. It's an opinion
B. Anything associated positively with President Obama is inherently good and pure.

Because I think universal health care is a good thing you try to paint me with black and white brush again. I've already stated that I think 90% of American politicians are crooks, whether Dems or GOPs. It's a result of their system and their need for contributions to get elected. Another great example of your logic.
Get a life.

oh yeah
http://www.google.ca/search?client=f...=Google+Search

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Because I think universal health care is a good thing you try to paint me with black and white brush again. I've already stated that I think 90% of American politicians are crooks, whether Dems or GOPs. It's a result of their system and their need for contributions to get elected. Another great example of your logic.
Get a life.

oh yeah
http://www.google.ca/search?client=f...=Google+Search

Additionally, you've said these things:

Any democrat opposed to the current bill is on the payroll of the insurance companies.

Obama and associated parties are immune to any such allegiances.

I don't care about the rest of it. Those two statements are so ridiculously myopic. Try to make it personal all you want, it's not. You've said those things as snipey remarks to comments I've made and I simply called you out for it. Nothing more.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by Azure

Sadly, Obama got a lot of people to vote for him based on the 'hope and change' mantra he was playing up during the campaign.

No results in the first 8 months would explain why so many independents are now disapproving of him, when they didn't 8 months ago.

No change? Really?

As a woman, he's already affected my future, by signing legislation that ensures companies can no longer pay my male counterparts more just because they're men. That is a fantastic change and a long time coming.

And by even opening up a conversation, sparking a debate on health care, he's started the wheel moving on getting something done to fix it. Whether this current legislation ever gets signed or not, rather than neglecting the issue, as Bush had for his entire time in office, Obama is taking it head on--screwed up bill or not.

I'm not saying the guy is a deity or even a great leader. But to say that he hasn't changed anything at all is false. They might have screwed up on the bill, but just opening up the way for future legislation, by sparking the interest in the health care system as it is, he has enacted some change. It's no longer as if the problem doesn't exist, a problem which Republicans would be all too happy to ignore, and which Bush turned a blind eye toward for his entire time in office.

This current bill may be irresponsible, and it likely won't be passed as is. But it is the beginning of something, and the beginning of a positive change.

[Displaced Flames fan]

further to Witty's comments....

I REALLY like how Obama has handled Iraq and Afghanistan. He has quietly ramped things up in Afghanistan and is continuing the policies initiated at the tail end of the Bush administration because they're working. He's been fantastic in that regard. It's probably the most impressive thing for me so far.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

further to Witty's comments....

I REALLY like how Obama has handled Iraq and Afghanistan. He has quietly ramped things up in Afghanistan and is continuing the policies initiated at the tail end of the Bush administration because they're working. He's been fantastic in that regard. It's probably the most impressive thing for me so far.

I agree with you, I feel like he's done a good job of handling that very sensitive situation.

The guy is far from perfect, but I feel far more confident with him in office than I did with Bush.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

He doesn't need proof.

A. It's an opinion
B. Anything associated positively with President Obama is inherently good and pure.

If Jean Chretien taught me anything, it's that a proof is a proof. And if it's a proof, then it's proven.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

further to Witty's comments....

I REALLY like how Obama has handled Iraq and Afghanistan. He has quietly ramped things up in Afghanistan and is continuing the policies initiated at the tail end of the Bush administration because they're working. He's been fantastic in that regard. It's probably the most impressive thing for me so far.

Are you being sarcastic?....I am confused.......
In order to get elected, Obama made all kinds of promises during his campaign that he would pull troops out of Iraq/Afghanistan, and he has done the complete opposite by adding troops to both fronts. You are impressed by this?

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Additionally, you've said these things:

Any democrat opposed to the current bill is on the payroll of the insurance companies.

Obama and associated parties are immune to any such allegiances.

I don't care about the rest of it. Those two statements are so ridiculously myopic. Try to make it personal all you want, it's not. You've said those things as snipey remarks to comments I've made and I simply called you out for it. Nothing more.

You're the one who began to make it personal with this

Of course you do....because anyone who disagrees with your view has to be evil or corrupt.

Look, my first point is that universal health care is a good thing. If any disagree, it's not worth my discussing it.

I can see why some electors might be against it because
a. they are happy as is and have a good plan,
b. they see a raise in taxes or
c. they are misinformed.
From what I've seen and heard, I think it's mostly c. misinformed.

The only reasons I can see the legislature is against it is
a. they are happy as is and so don't give a crap.

b. they are trying to protect their taxpaying voters from higher taxes. (If anyone actually believes this, somewhere there is a Brooklyn Bridge for sale.)

c. they are beholden to private health care providers and the health care companies are beholden to Wall Street and rely on them for election funds.

I pick c. they are being paid off by private health care in one way or another.

http://blogs.pitch.com/plog/2009/08/...tributions.php

[mikey_the_redneck]

Award winning journalist from Australia John Pilger recently says Obama is a corporate marketing creation in this 5 minute clip......interesting take.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C62KA...E39445&index=0

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

No change? Really?

As a woman, he's already affected my future, by signing legislation that ensures companies can no longer pay my male counterparts more just because they're men. That is a fantastic change and a long time coming.

No offense....but any woman that works for a company that pays men more for being men gets what she deserves.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by HOZ

No offense....but any woman that works for a company that pays men more for being men gets what she deserves.

No offense, but it's attitudes like that that are the reason why unions still exist. And since I friggin hate unions, I like the legislation that Witty is talking about.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Are you being sarcastic?....I am confused.......
In order to get elected, Obama made all kinds of promises during his campaign that he would pull troops out of Iraq/Afghanistan, and he has done the complete opposite by adding troops to both fronts. You are impressed by this?

Why are you confused?

He promised to end the wars, not end them immediately. He's doing what is required to make that possible. Pretty straight forward.