Young American's losing their religion.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by SebC

I agree with your statement of facts.

I just don't think it should be that way. How is it in the interests of the child to deny them safe sex eduction, or to block them from being introduced to the concept of evolution?

You're only denying them safe-sex education from the SCHOOL system. I'm sure the parents will still teach their version at home.

Agree/Disagree with that, but its not like these kids are growing up without 'any' knowledge of the birds and the bees.

Sure, they might not teach about 'safe sex' or condom use, birth control, etc, etc.....but in the end, parental rights so supersede any public school right, provided it doesn't truly prohibit the child from getting a proper education.

Evolution is a completely different issue. I'm of the opinion that parents, especially those going as far as to pull their kids out of those classes are taking it WAY to the extreme. Someone mentioned earlier that outside of locking your child up in a box, there is no way you can KEEP them from all these 'worldly' things. Even if you don't agree with evolution, what is wrong with learning about it?

If parents seriously believe that their child learning about evolution is going to 'ruin' them.....I have no idea how you would get around that.

I took a World Religions class in high school, where we learned about numerous other religions around the world. I wasn't damaged.

Like I said earlier, we're dealing with a generation of parents that were raised by the influence of the hardcore, anti-evolution, end times believing.....Moody, Chick, evangelical style outlook.

It'll take some time to get past that....but its a good sign if we're seeing a push away from that.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I'm not getting into this, but it would be interesting to see what would happen in a church if pastor gave his sermon online via chat or discussion board, and all the members of the congregation could post along with it. Sort of like a GDT. You would really get the true voice of the congregation and less of the sleepy uninvolved sheep effect I hated so much whenever I had gone to church in my youth. I just never agreed with a lot of the stuff being said. Maybe that's just my nature.

Lots of them are starting to use the internet to do that.

From online webcasts, to 'forum' type sermons.....we're seeing a big push towards the internet.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by photon

Some people I know actually do that kind of thing, rather than a guy on a pulpit talking to the congregation they just have a group and everyone can contribute. There might be a leader (pastor) but he's more like what a shepherd actually does, guides the discussion, makes sure people keep on topic, etc, he isn't the authority that current churches place him as. So it's more like a discussion here, rather than an authority telling people how to interpret the scriptures.

They say their setup is more biblical too, the current liturgy and power structure in the church has much influence from pagan sources. An interesting book on that subject actually is Pagan Christianity? Exploring the Roots of our Church Practices.

I'm also talking about a more forum type setting where there is also an element of anonyminity, because many of those discussions, especially within the closed social circles of a religious group, there's a big push to conform or many people just don't speak out if something bugs them or the rest try to get them to follow their way of thinking, etc.

[North East Goon]

As long as the meaning of life remains a mystery, as well as the after-life. There will always be religion or some sort of faith based ideology.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by North East Goon

As long as the meaning of life remains a mystery, as well as the after-life. There will always be religion or some sort of faith based ideology.

The meaning of life...I got news for you pal, we've found the secret.

The secret is there is no meaning of life. If you ascribe meaning to human life, then you have to ascribe meaning to the life of dogs, rats, ants and bacteria.

The real truth is there will (most likely) always be room for religion to hide in the extreme outer reaches of our epistemological corpus. Science is painting a room, one wall then another, with religion slowly being painted into a corner. The really interesting questions are metaepistemological - will it ever be the case that our knowledge is complete so that religion has nowhere left to hide? Is it even possible? If it's not possible, does that constitute evidence for religion of some sort? Or is a trend towards complete knowledge sufficient? If we take the graph of 1/x - we see the graph approach zero but never hit zero except in the infinite limit. But does the fact we never see it hit zero stop us from "knowing" it eventually will and does?

[evman150]

Originally Posted by Azure

Even if you don't agree with evolution, what is wrong with learning about it?

You can't "agree" or "disagree" with evolution. That would be like disagreeing that 2+2=4. It would be like coming home from a vacation and seeing your house in ashes and being told a fire burned it down, and "disagreeing" and instead positing that an evil frog took a pee on it and voila! ashes.

We call someone who doesn't "agree" that 2+2=4 either uneducated or stupid. Why the different standard for the evangelicals?

[Finny61]

Originally Posted by photon

1. As I said, those issues are foundational to our society, why would it be surprising for discussions to come back to that.

1. Religion has always been the source and upbringing of most cultures, west or east. But to attempt to remove religion means a fabric of society and what it's built on. That's why it's so difficult to truly separate religion from government state. But people are using the same crap that we can't find answers to or it's just flat out beat like a dead horse.

2. Not true, there are people who are religious who are very open to having their beliefs challenged. Some people want to know their beliefs hold up under scrutiny, while others don't care if they do. If you are in the latter group, then just stay out of threads that question beliefs. It's not hard.

2. True some enjoy challenge, the challenge in their view is not what they believe but how they may be able to inspire you into considering religious belief (ie: pastor or church leader). The ones that don't want to be challenged don't want to force their beliefs on you.



3. Don't presume to know people's motivations or project your own into them. And don't presume that just because their position disagrees with yours that it's ignorant.

Saying that religion is something negative and needs to be stamped out is not bashing, there are very intelligent people (including some who have faith) who think that religion is harmful, and have well reasoned reasons and support for their positions.

3. It is ignorant, if you take out religion and put in any class of people whether it be homeless, of colored race, and even homosexual (yes that's where the churches battle one another), then it's discriminatory to a certain extent. You don't just stamp a piece of society and its members out. Not intelligent and it's a joke that you would stand by a comment like that.


4. What does that have to do with what I said? I said a sermon was one way, which it is. Very few sermons involve a discussion between whoever's speaking and the congregation. I've given many sermons

4. You projected that sermon has no recourse, yes a pastor gives a speech and you listen but then for the other 6 days of the week he or she works they are there for you and for you to challenge them. Then on top of that there are study groups for members of the church to gather and discuss the things that confuse them. A sermon on here is not even 'I speak and you listen' it's actually more constructive because it allows discussion that you would prefer but instead of denouncing religion it promotes some thinking against the majority that don't understand it. If you've given sermons then what church or affiliation were you working for because of the ones I know you are hired and paid by the church to have that right. I don't question the possibility but I won't let you BS either..

If you want challenged fine but I have a job and a family to raise so I don't have my life to give away arguing with you. Sorry but I forgot to click multi quote so I numbered each within your quote segment.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by evman150

You can't "agree" or "disagree" with evolution. That would be like disagreeing that 2+2=4. It would be like coming home from a vacation and seeing your house in ashes and being told a fire burned it down, and "disagreeing" and instead positing that an evil frog took a pee on it and voila! ashes.

We call someone who doesn't "agree" that 2+2=4 either uneducated or stupid. Why the different standard for the evangelicals?

uh 2+2=5...

[North East Goon]

Originally Posted by evman150

The meaning of life...I got news for you pal, we've found the secret.

The secret is there is no meaning of life. If you ascribe meaning to human life, then you have to ascribe meaning to the life of dogs, rats, ants and bacteria.

That's what you think and that is okay!

[CaptainCrunch]

at the end of the day, your dead, you'd better have passed on your knowledge to your next generation or you lived a pointless life.

You don't come back, you rot, the worms eat you, the bacteria collapses your skin, the mosquito's make nests in your eyeballs, and the maggets treat you like a safeways.

When you die, there's probably a quick pain and then there's nothing, the electrical activity in your brain stops, you don't fall forever, or walk into the light, or rise above your body. Its like a lightswitch, your dead.

Your last words might be "I only have one life to give to my country" or "", or "jesu" . . . or "holy t@@@yf###ing christ", but who cares because there's a better then average chance that your going to die alone.

And the last thought that you might have could be the cure to the common cold, or solving the Kennedy assasination or that you forgot to turn off the stove and in minutes your lifeless body is going to go up in flames with the rest of the people that live in the cheap ass seniors home that you've been living at for years. But really who cares. Your not going to be reborn as a baby, or a dog or a bacteria or a bird. Its going to go black. One minute your here, the next minute your gone, and there's no journey or trip that your taking. In fact, your life isn't about a journey. Its about the accumulation of wealth, and drinking and boning and maybe passing on your genetic material, because thats the only people that are going to remember you.

Because your just flat out completely and utterly dead.

[North East Goon]

yikes Captain. I like to believe I will one day be snorting coke off of Marilyn Monroe's backside and you cant ever take that away from me. Or frontside I am open to different views of afterlife.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by North East Goon

That's what you think and that is okay!

It's not what I "think". It's the result of the colossal mountain of evidence in favour of it.

What's more likely, that we are here by happenstance and there is no purpose, or that Jesus or God or the holy ghost or whomever has a "purpose" for each of us (well...just white, heterosexual christians, but that's nitpicking) on this speck of dust in the universe?

Gimme a break.

[SeeGeeWhy]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

uh 2+2=5...

Mel, your signature is turning my outie into an innie.

CREEPY

[photon]

Originally Posted by Finny61

If you want challenged fine but I have a job and a family to raise so I don't have my life to give away arguing with you. Sorry but I forgot to click multi quote so I numbered each within your quote segment.

I respect you saying "sorry I don't have time to discuss", that's how life goes. But if you are going to jump in expect to have to defend your statements, if you can't then better to just observe; I stay out of many threads because of that.

Originally Posted by Finny61

Religion has always been the source and upbringing of most cultures, west or east. But to attempt to remove religion means a fabric of society and what it's built on. That's why it's so difficult to truly separate religion from government state. But people are using the same crap that we can't find answers to or it's just flat out beat like a dead horse.

Just because something's difficult doesn't mean it's not worth doing. And just because something always has been a specific way doesn't mean that that's the best way.

I think society would overall be better off without organized religion, but that statement implicitly requires something to replace it; I think that's better education, communication, etc. I see it as a 5000 year natural process rather than an event.

Originally Posted by Finny61

True some enjoy challenge, the challenge in their view is not what they believe but how they may be able to inspire you into considering religious belief (ie: pastor or church leader). The ones that don't want to be challenged don't want to force their beliefs on you.

For some conversion is the desired challenge, for others it is testing the foundation of your beliefs to make sure they are strong. I'd like to know that what I think is based on something well built.

You yourself talked about sermons teaching how to live; that is the exact same thing, a sermon challenges how you think and possibly changes how you think. You don't get annoyed when the pastor tries to change your mind or challenge your ideas do you?

Originally Posted by Finny61

It is ignorant, if you take out religion and put in any class of people whether it be homeless, of colored race, and even homosexual (yes that's where the churches battle one another), then it's discriminatory to a certain extent. You don't just stamp a piece of society and its members out. Not intelligent and it's a joke that you would stand by a comment like that.

The difference between the things you listed and religious is someone a specific race or sexual orientation is what that person is, by no choice of their own. What someone chooses to believe is (arguably) fully under their choice. So rather than replacing religion with black or gay, it's more appropriate to replace it with something like democrat, or racist, or some other set of beliefs. Saying that one should stamp out all democrats isn't discriminatory, and no one would disagree that racism should be stamped out.

And keep in mind that "stamped out" might not mean what you are thinking.. I doubt he's saying that religions should be outlawed and forcibly stamped out. Probably he means stamped out in the same way that geocentricism was stamped out; it went away because something better came along.

If he means religion made illegal, I would disagree with that strongly.

And no one said anything about stamping members of anything out.

Originally Posted by Finny61

You projected that sermon has no recourse, yes a pastor gives a speech and you listen but then for the other 6 days of the week he or she works they are there for you and for you to challenge them. Then on top of that there are study groups for members of the church to gather and discuss the things that confuse them.

Sure some churches have those things, but they're not part of the sermon. I didn't say no exchange of ideas was possible, I said the sermon was uni-directional.

Originally Posted by Finny61

If you've given sermons then what church or affiliation were you working for because of the ones I know you are hired and paid by the church to have that right. I don't question the possibility but I won't let you BS either..

The church was affiliated with the Mennonites, though they were much more evangelical than what I would consider a traditional Mennonite church. I wasn't the pastor or in any paid position. When the pastor would go away on apostolic type trips he would often ask other leaders than the assistant pastor to give the message. I've also led worship and played in the worship team, been the sound guy, let youth and young adult groups, etc.. should I send a resume?

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Azure

Regarding a bit more of the OP.....I think instead of a push AWAY from religion, we're seeing a push away from the fanatical, hardline approach to religious beliefs.

Which I think we would all agree is good.

And with that comes a greater acceptance of evolution, and different liberal ideas.

Yeah and this is for me what I would expect from a more informed less isolated generation that has access to more ideas, cultures, etc.

I believe we'll be seeing a move away from the old traditional church that takes hard line stances on social issues, what will come out of all that is probably 'new' churches in the next 50 years with more forward thinking ideas but still holding onto some core values, family, faith, community, charity, etc.. And move away from divisive and polarizing ideas like gay marriage, stem cells, abortion, etc..

My problem isn't religion, yes obviously I'm not a fan and I know you can live a great life without it. But I'm realistic, and I'm a big fan of modernizing religion, moving more away from dogma and evolving what a religious person is taught and preached to.

I would love if we got back to preaching more about charity, helping the poor, doing more for other people than the focus on divisive issues.

I'm certain Gay marriage is going to be something people 50 years from now look back on us and shake their heads, akin to how we look at how people tried to deny women the vote 90 yrs ago.

I think thats why this article is hopeful, not because its for atheists, but for the moderate normal religious person, who probably is as sick of dogmatic fundy's as much as I am.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Finny61

Or maybe many of us just get sick of seeing the same recycled crap every week, how about we bring in a pastor and shove a sermon down your throat. It's all cut from the same cloth. You can ignore it but it pisses you off that you have to see it every week. It's a lot like Canadian Tire commercials, they won't go away.

The point is you don't have to click on the thread, you do, and you get involved.

The same can be said of many other repeating topics here, politics is highly charged full of the same arguments ad nauseum. I tend to avoid politics because I'm not as passionate about it, and those debates can become really energy draining.

There's a lot of people who love this topic, lots of people who are interested, and I know for a fact there could be a lot more topics posted every month here but most of us hold back.

You can post religious posts promoting religion, people can choose whether to read them or not, thats not pushing anything down people's throats.

You do have choice here at CP

[RougeUnderoos]

I wonder, how many people reading this are more devout in their religion (whatever it is) than their grandparents were/are? Anyone?

My grandparents and their families were serious about this stuff. They were down with the King. One of my grandpas grew up in a house where dancing was considered wicked and playing cards were tools of the devil. They were hardass Lutherans and went to church all the time and truly walked the walk. Two generations later and the only grandchild of his that goes to worship only does so on a special occasion, and it's Hannukah.

Members of the other side of the family engaged in fistfights with people because they were Catholics. What the hell?

But it all disappeared. Poof. Gone.

[Azure]

Yeah, I remember when cards AND music were considered the works of the devil.

Things have changed the past 10 years.

[Finny61]

Originally Posted by photon

should I send a resume?

Yes please.

[Finny61]

Originally Posted by Thor

The point is you don't have to click on the thread, you do, and you get involved.

The same can be said of many other repeating topics here, politics is highly charged full of the same arguments ad nauseum. I tend to avoid politics because I'm not as passionate about it, and those debates can become really energy draining.

There's a lot of people who love this topic, lots of people who are interested, and I know for a fact there could be a lot more topics posted every month here but most of us hold back.

You can post religious posts promoting religion, people can choose whether to read them or not, thats not pushing anything down people's throats.

You do have choice here at CP

It brings in a little about what I was going to say to Photon but when you take a religious group of people, they are what they are, they consider what they believe is what makes them who they are. So whenever someone decides to post some propaganda or just a flat out news article on how religion is falling like the sky then you can't expect everyone it directly effects to not respond. I have no issue with freedom of belief but in the confines of respect for everyones choice in life.

The annoyance is not so much the topic but the repeated use of it on a weekly basis, you have your cast of characters, a new story to put a twist on the same thing, put a nice new label on it aka thread title and you have the same thing over again. When all along you just had to go to page 2 to last week's 'religion needs to be removed thread' and post it there.

I'm not sayin' I'm just sayin'.