Religious child abuse, a real case for it....?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by redforever

Exactly.

You know what you end up when that happens?

Residential schools.

No Thankyou!!!

And we all know where that ends up.

[RougeUnderoos]

I don't think she's quite as sheltered and clueless as the first 5 minutes of that video portrays her. That Victoria Spice/Britney bit was a hamfisted attempt to make her look like a ######. All it really showed me is that she's sheltered from things we should all be sheltered from, such as vain, no-talent hacks like Victoria Spice and Britney Spears.

Brainwashing, sheltering parents aren't going to let a camera crew in the house for the summer for the world to see how "crazy" they are. And sheltered 13-year-old girls don't get to go hang out with big brother at his flat with his university mates for the weekend. Speaking of, how sheltered can he be? The guy is living with girls.

I don't agree with their religion or, usually, home-schooling, but this is hardly abuse.
Ignoring a few of their beliefs that I find a little loopy, they seem like a model family. They all seem very happy.

That girl is obviously very smart. When she goes to university, we'll see how long the religious stuff holds up.

[Azure]

We'll just hope she ends up in a medical school somewhere.

[MelBridgeman]

If anything sheltering your children in the western world, will prolly make them question things even more...I know some people who were raised very similar to this, certainly not as extreme (may make a difference)... Once in University..all that crap went out the window...people generally are a product of their enviroment, but especially when you are dealing with young adults, beliefs and ideals can change quickly..its part of the maturation process...

You would have a better case with some of the things that go on in middle eastern countries, OR cults in the western world...point is..it takes a certain type of person to behave this way...this example is just religion...the same type of oddness goes on with "atheist" parents too, whether, as already mentioned it be, sports or music ect....

religion is merely just the justification, the reality is people will just find another thing to justify their crazy ways..

Again looks like a loving and caring family..and that my friends is much better for a kid, then Britney Spears or Victoria Beckham.

[Calgaryborn]

There's families in my church who are raising their children more conservatively and sheltered than this family. The only thing that scared me about the documentary is the presentation. The music was unsettling and obviously chosen to make the listeners unsettled. They chose to show repeatedly her expound on hell which would have been only a part of her gospel presentation and the most disturbing part.
There is a Missionary family I know of in Holland and another family who used to be stationed in Germany who were both forced to put their children in public school or chose to break the law. Paranoid Atheists in both countries convinced their respective lawmakers that such sheltering was harmful to children. I think that might eventually happen in England as well because of the strong atheist lobby. It will be a harder sell in the US because of the large numbers of people who do home school: It's easier to pick on small groups. Hopefully Canada will resist outlawing homeschooling. I have some hope that the lessons learnt in the rez schools and also in the history of the Dukabours(sp) in Canada might be enough to stem the tide.

O and for the record: The girl and her siblings don't live in constant fear of hell. Their saved and judging by a brief glance at their denomination's web site probabably don't believe their salvation can be lost.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Paranoid Atheists in both countries convinced their respective lawmakers that such sheltering was harmful to children. I think that might eventually happen in England as well because of the strong atheist lobby.

Are you sure it's paranoid atheists and not people concerned about the welfare and education of these children?

A lot of people simply are not qualified to educate anyone's children, including their own.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Are you sure it's paranoid atheists and not people concerned about the welfare and education of these children?

A lot of people simply are not qualified to educate anyone's children, including their own.

I can remember specifically in Holland that the reason given was the need for intrigration into Dutch society. The "child abuse" mantra was part of their arguement. I don't remember specifically about the German reasoning. The family working in Germany was leaving just as the laws were coming down. Perhaps the reasons there were more in line with yours. I don't know.

[Calgaryborn]

Here is a story from WND about one christian family's struggle with the German legal system over homeschooling. Apparently they like Thor see it as "child abuse".

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=85747

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Here is a story from WND about one christian family's struggle with the German legal system over homeschooling. Apparently they like Thor see it as "child abuse".

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=85747

Well, I think the state is going way too far. They did not even visit the home to look at the educational program the parents were teaching.

As far as I am concerned, by and large, most parents know what is in the best interests of their children.

In most cases, giving your children an alternative education does not make one a bad parent, nor does it amount to child abuse. Fining parents for doing so, or removing children from alternative situations compounds any problem that might exist.

Yes, in some cases, some children must be rescued by the state. I don't see a case being made for that here.

[photon]

Originally Posted by redforever

As far as I am concerned, by and large, most parents know what is in the best interests of their children.

I don't think I'd agree, and even it was was most parents, you still have that group that isn't part of most parents.

Teaching isn't easy at the best of times.

I know I've gone through some things with my son that if I'd left the way they were it would have been serious problems down the road, but with professional help it's been addressed beyond my dreams.

There's a reason people go to school and train for a large chunk of time to be teachers, or OT, or speech pathologists, or whatever.

As for home schooling, I had friends that were home schooled and they were very odd and had difficulties integrating into society when the time came.. the girls ended up marrying very young (16, one might have been 15 not sure). I don't think home schooling is necessarily the cause of that, the devil as always is in the details. I think it's more an attitude of "the world is evil and lets make sure our family is as far away from it as possible".

I guess if home schooled kids can pass standardized testing, and meet the requirements for other aspects of education... But before being a parent I was much more ok with home schooling than I am now that I've had experience with skilled professionals; a parent just cannot fill some roles.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Are you sure it's paranoid atheists and not people concerned about the welfare and education of these children?

A lot of people simply are not qualified to educate anyone's children, including their own.

Unless these children are obviously being abused, the state has no right to WANT to take them from their parents.

I always thought Thor was a bit more open-minded than this, given some of the other threads he started, but maybe I was wrong.

This thread reminds me of some of the threads started over on the JREF forums by atheists who think of themselves as being open-minded, but are being as zealous as certain religious people.

[bcb]

Kids who are home schooled in Canada must still follow the provincial curriculum. That was the only part of the "Deborah" story that was disturbing...The parents seemed to have their own curriculum. At least in Alberta, when kids who are home schooled leave grade 12, they will still have the basic skills comparable to kids who go to traditional school.

Aside from that, this girl is not living in an abusive household, in my opinion.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Here is a story from WND about one christian family's struggle with the German legal system over homeschooling. Apparently they like Thor see it as "child abuse".

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=85747

Leave it to WorldNutDaily to invoke the Hitler Clause.

Homeschooling itself certainly isn't child abuse, but it gets kind of iffy if you homeschool and can't teach anything.

No kid should have to suffer, say, illiteracy, because of mom and dad's religious convictions and/or ego. I've worked (as a teacher*) with kids who have been homeschooled. It ain't always pretty. A perfectly capable 10-year-old shouldn't have to be taught how to read or count.


*not with the public board but in a private clinic

[redforever]

I think those who are so concerned about home schooling are not aware of what it entails. And you sell many parents short of what they can do. Many parents can and do fulfill roles they were not trained for. Many parents can and do fulfill roles they never visioned themselves in. Teaching might be one of those roles, caregiver for a seriously or terminally ill child might be another...... there are so many examples where parents did rise to the occasion when circumstances forced them to.

For one thing, you don't just pull your children out of school and teach them whatever you wish, at least not in Canada. And no where in that documentary about the young girl did I get the impression that her parents were teaching hocus pocus to their children or not teaching any skills at all.

Their son had won a scholarship!!! They are merely schooling on their own, with an emphasis on religion, and OBVIOUSLY fulfilling every requirement for graduating and meeting educational requirements.

Home schooling in Canada still has to meet the requirements of the Department of Education within the province the child resides. Now if the parents wish to teach other things over and above that, it is their perogative. And why shouldn't it be? Just because it is a touchy subject? a subject we do not agree with? Alternative is just different, it does not have to imply wrong.

Photon, I agree, not everyone can teach or should attempt to teach. And not everyone should attempt to teach their children. I am a former teacher and when our son required some help in one of his subjects, we hired a tutor. He was at the age where I thought an outsider was best to address his concerns. If he were younger, I would have addressed them myself.

We all have concerns about our children, some serious enough to require professional help, some not. And just because your child is in a public school does not ensure that the child will then acquire social skills either. Public education is on the hot seat these days, many parents are very upset with the present system, some are upset enough that they seek private schools, alternative schools, charter schools or home schooling. Personally, I am glad I live in a country that enables parents to have choices available to them.

[Locke]

We aren't talking backwater Mississippi homeschooling "Waterboy" style.

[photon]

Originally Posted by redforever

I think those who are so concerned about home schooling are not aware of what it entails. And you sell many parents short of what they can do. Many parents can and do fulfill roles they were not trained for. Many parents can and do fulfill roles they never visioned themselves in. Teaching might be one of those roles, caregiver for a seriously or terminally ill child might be another...... there are so many examples where parents did rise to the occasion when circumstances forced them to.

I don't disagree that there are many parents who can do a great job, and many parents who can rise to the occasion.. but there's no way of telling who those parents are, and in a home-schooling situation many isn't enough, ALL parents have to do a good job and rise to the occasion.

And as I agreed, in a situation like Canada where standards must be met, that makes it easier to accept.

I also agree that the public system has its problems; I myself am looking outside the public system because there are a lot of things they do that I don't think are very effective, and because my son in particular has things that might make the public system a more difficult path.

Choice is good, as long as the choices are good.

However just from a reason point of view, it makes more sense to have a few people trained to fly airplanes and build cars and such than it does to let everyone fly their own airplane and build their own cars.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by photon

I don't disagree that there are many parents who can do a great job, and many parents who can rise to the occasion.. but there's no way of telling who those parents are, and in a home-schooling situation many isn't enough, ALL parents have to do a good job and rise to the occasion.

By the same token then, ALL teachers should do a good job and rise to the occasion.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but this is an imperfect world and it just does not happen.

[photon]

Originally Posted by redforever

By the same token then, ALL teachers should do a good job and rise to the occasion.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but this is an imperfect world and it just does not happen.

Agreed, but at least there's a greater chance of it since teachers are trained on it. Plus you can move your kid to a different school and pick a different teacher somewhat, or bad teachers can be let go (well in theory, in practice I guess that's not really the case here anyway), but you can't choose a different parent for a kid.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by photon

Agreed, but at least there's a greater chance of it since teachers are trained on it. Plus you can move your kid to a different school and pick a different teacher somewhat, or bad teachers can be let go (well in theory, in practice I guess that's not really the case here anyway), but you can't choose a different parent for a kid.

You know, with a lot of home schooling, it is not even the parent who is doing the teaching. A lot of it can be done through the Alberta Distance Learning Center.

You are then matched with a teacher or mentor who is pretty well available most of the time if the child requires help. And many of these teachers have lessons that you access by computer and it is like you are sitting in a classroom, there is the teacher, talking or doing whatever, and the kid listens.

Many times, with home schooling, the parent facilitates more than they teach.

The child still writes standardized tests as well, and once that child is writing tests that decide if a diploma is granted or not, the child is not within the confines of their home to write the test. The child has to be taken to some other facility where they are monitored while taking the tests.

I think in the case of the topic at hand with this young girl and her family, there is fear mongering because the parents are emphasiziing religion.

[photon]

And that's the kind of home schooling I can be ok with, but it's pretty clear that that's not the kind of home schooling that is an issue for some.

As to the fear mongering, I don't think it is. Personally I think indoctrination of any kind is bad, religions are just low hanging fruit.