'Girls over 10 or 12 years are eligible for marriage'

[Daradon]

^^^ That's a chubby kitty.

And tired too, or maybe it's just slow, lol

[photon]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I wonder whether the British Sharia court allows marriage to 8, 10, 12 year old girls? I honestly don't know but I doubt it.

It did say it was in place for civil matters, and while marriage is a civil thing statutory rape etc probably aren't so those laws should probably override any civil matters shouldn't they?

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by photon

It did say it was in place for civil matters, and while marriage is a civil thing statutory rape etc probably aren't so those laws should probably override any civil matters shouldn't they?

That's what I would think. So even though all Muslims support marrying off 8, 10 & 12 years girls, despite that support, Brits (or even Muslims in Britain) aren't going to be forced to accept that type of thing, right?

Thank goodness for that!

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Great post Cheese. There is a lot to think about here.

There are many issues at play.

Originally Posted by longsuffering

What Sharia Laws are being interpreted, by whom, and how are they being enforced? Should Muslims get special treatment? As you ask can I, as a non-Muslim live with it?

Let's highlight that in the case of Britain, as your information says rulings are made by 5 sharia courts and that the courts are granted power (effectively) by the people agreeing to be bound by the courts. Presumably each of these courts have one or more clerics interpreting sharia law.

Yep...the people have to agree to be tried and bound under Sharia law. I wonder...and yes I am speculating here, do you think many women would have freedom of choice on where to be represented where Sharia law exists? Just wondering whether Sharia law is as open to interpretation/manipulation as the Christian bible is?

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Unless I misread your post, Sharia Law is not being forced on anyone. Am I right to that point?

Well it depends what you mean by forced. On the Muslims...no it isnt. On the general population of Britain? I would imagine most British men would prefer Sharia divorce court, not sure about the women though.

Originally Posted by longsuffering

At the risk of being an ASS, I'm assuming that the interpretation of Sharia Law in these courts is wholly different than the interpretation of Sharia Law by Grand Mufti Abdul Aziz al-Sheikh (the cleric in the original linked article), so personally, under these circumstances, just as I do not object to aboriginal justice here in Canada under certain defined limitations, I don't object to Sharia Law in certain instances and with the agreement of ALL parties.

I wonder whether the British Sharia court allows marriage to 8, 10, 12 year old girls? I honestly don't know but I doubt it.

Interpretation. Scary word when in the hands of all powerful clerics. Somehow Joe CountingCrow of some aboriginal tribe in Northern Alberta and his use of sweat huts just isnt the same thing.

Originally Posted by longsuffering

For that matter, do most Muslim clerics (outside Britain) support the marriage of girls under the age of consent? The article suggests they do but I wonder? Do most Muslims support these marriages? I lived and worked with Muslims for 8 years in Yemen and Central Asia and I don't believe that any of the Muslims I've met would support these tyoes of marriages. What is the incidence of these marriages in Islam? Before we accept the premise that all Muslims are 10 year old marrying child abusers, do we have enough information to develop an informed opinion?

I guess its open to interpretation. One is too many in my mind. No Canadian law allows this type of marriage...period.

Originally Posted by longsuffering

What should we believe? Do I believe an article from the Times of India that really provides no context on the scope of the issue, or do I form an opinion based on personal, first hand observations and interactions with real people?

For all most readers of the original article KNOW (for a fact), the incidence of underage marriage in Islam is no more than it is in Texas. I don't know what the actual incidence is, but I don't accept an internet (or newspaper) source as the final word on the subject as some here seem to.

This article is about Muslims outside of Texas. They are both abhorent IMHO. Unfortunately the article uses a widely known Religion as its basis for abusing children. A pocket of Mormons here and there and a few whackjobs spread across the country is not the same. IF a cleric says its ok and just, I can imagine that it will become more widespread. This would be the same as our Prime Minister saying the same thing.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

That's what I would think. So even though all Muslims support marrying off 8, 10 & 12 years girls, despite that support, Brits (or even Muslims in Britain) aren't going to be forced to accept that type of thing, right?

Thank goodness for that!

There also matters of concern in regards to divorce proceedings and domestic abuse. To even a liberal reading of Sharia law, something that most Muslims reject, the law is heavily weighted against women.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

That's what I would think. So even though all Muslims support marrying off 8, 10 & 12 years girls, despite that support, Brits (or even Muslims in Britain) aren't going to be forced to accept that type of thing, right?

Thank goodness for that!

The FACT that Sharia law did not exist in Britain until recently should not exclude one from thinking that a small change inevitably creates a larger one.
We would be crazy to think otherwise.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Cheese

This article is about Muslims outside of Texas. They are both abhorent IMHO.

Agreed

Originally Posted by Cheese

Unfortunately the article uses a widely known Religion as its basis for abusing children. A pocket of Mormons here and there and a few whackjobs spread across the country is not the same. IF a cleric says its ok and just, I can imagine that it will become more widespread. This would be the same as our Prime Minister saying the same thing.

You imagine it is more widespread and suggest (as I interpret it) that it is very widespread.

Don't you think you should know how widespread it is before painting most Muslim men as child abusers?

I mean you seem to unquestionably accept that while limited to a "pocket of Mormon whackjobs", it is widespread in Islam. I think that it would be important to know before making that generalization.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Cheese

The FACT that Sharia law did not exist in Britain until recently should not exclude one from thinking that a small change inevitably creates a larger one.
We would be crazy to think otherwise.

Agreed again.

Change is constant, but fortunately it is often for the good. You assume Sharia Law could eventually supercede (or at least affect) English Law. It is just as likely, or more likely, that Sharia Law in Britain and outside will evolve to reflect the changing status of women and children.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by peter12

There also matters of concern in regards to divorce proceedings and domestic abuse. To even a liberal reading of Sharia law, something that most Muslims reject, the law is heavily weighted against women.

And thankfully, no Muslim woman in Britain may be forced to agree to a divorce under Sharia law.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Agreed


You imagine it is more widespread and suggest (as I interpret it) that it is very widespread.

Don't you think you should know how widespread it is before painting most Muslim men as child abusers?

I mean you seem to unquestionably accept that while limited to a "pocket of Mormon whackjobs", it is widespread in Islam. I think that it would be important to know before making that generalization.

I said...

Unfortunately the article uses a widely known Religion as its basis for abusing children. A pocket of Mormons here and there and a few whackjobs spread across the country is not the same. IF a cleric says its ok and just, I can imagine that it will become more widespread. This would be the same as our Prime Minister saying the same thing.

I didnt say it was. I also never painted most Muslim men as child abusers. I DID say that the cleric who has the most power has suggested its ok...and that cleric wields extraordinary power amongst the citizens of that country...and likely beyond.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Cheese

I said...

Unfortunately the article uses a widely known Religion as its basis for abusing children. A pocket of Mormons here and there and a few whackjobs spread across the country is not the same. IF a cleric says its ok and just, I can imagine that it will become more widespread. This would be the same as our Prime Minister saying the same thing.

I didnt say it was. I also never painted most Muslim men as child abusers. I DID say that the cleric who has the most power has suggested its ok...and that cleric wields extraordinary power amongst the citizens of that country...and likely beyond.

Sorry. I honestly wasn't trying to put words in your mouth.

[The Ditch]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

And thankfully, no Muslim woman in Britain may be forced to agree to a divorce under Sharia law.

How many women will be pressured into having to use Sharia Law because they will be shunned from the community or take abuse either mentally or physically because of it?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

And thankfully, no Muslim woman in Britain may be forced to agree to a divorce under Sharia law.

That may very well be the case now. It certainly is not the case in many other circumstances in the Muslim world.

[burn_this_city]

Just curious where this evolution of womens rights is happening. Everything I read tends to reflect a move toward extremism in the muslim world versus moderation. Implementation of Sharia law seems to point to the opposite of moderation. Islam has a looooong way to go before they can consider a job well done on womens rights.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by The Ditch

How many women will be pressured into having to use Sharia Law because they will be shunned from the community or take abuse either mentally or physically because of it?

I don't know. What makes you certain any will be?

Seriously, I know that it will probably happen. But you do realize that it is not only Muslim women who are threatened, abused and intimidated in matters that may go before the court, right?

Let's not pretend this issue is limited to Islam and that it would justify ending the practice of allowing Sharia Law to settle certain matters.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I don't know. What makes you certain any will be?

Seriously, I know that it will probably happen. But you do realize that it is not only Muslim women who are threatened, abused and intimidated in matters that may go before the court, right?

Let's not pretend this issue is limited to Islam and that it would justify ending the practice of allowing Sharia Law to settle certain matters.

What does this mean? I think everyone realizes that Muslim women aren't alone. Women have always been the victim of religious, political and cultural oppression. In western democracies, we have struggled to correct this injustice.

I think as a whole, you see the Muslim oppression of women more and it's being hidden under the veil (literally) of a post-modern form of multi-culturalism. All beliefs are seen as equal. Meanwhile, we are ignoring the often silent suffering individuals who are being oppressed by these religious hierarchies.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by peter12

I think as a whole, you see the Muslim oppression of women more and it's being hidden under the veil (literally) of a post-modern form of multi-culturalism. All beliefs are seen as equal. Meanwhile, we are ignoring the often silent suffering individuals who are being oppressed by these religious hierarchies.

I disagree that it is being hidden. I think the media does a good job of making sure everyone is aware of the shortfalls of Islam. I think it is great to shine a light on these problems. That is how changes will be made.

It seems as though some believe Islam will never change. Change is inevitable, and in our global community, where the oppressed (whether women, children or minorities learn that they don't have to accept how things have been, I believe change will happen more quickly than ever before.

I wish it could happen today or tomorrow, but it will take at least a generation. Nonetheless I believe things will improve for Muslim women because Muslims will demand it.

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

Nice dodge there Jane. Way to claim you were misunderstood. And since you've deleted the photo you posted, the one portraying the prophet Mohammed as having sex with a child, maybe some readers of this thread will believe your claim.

It was deleted out of my courtesy to another forum member (YOU) as you were offended. As I understand it you extracted somehow that it was indicitive of all Muslims.
Anyone can see the pic, it has been floating on the web for a least 3 years. Just search Google images with Mohammed and Lego.

And while I understand that the Wild Rose Party doesn't support marriage to 10 year olds, but to be clear, does the Party support the depiction of the prophet Mohammed in the picture you posted?

All I can say is ... WOW.

I will find it very hard to take anything you post seriously after a bizarre comment like this.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by longsuffering

I disagree that it is being hidden. I think the media does a good job of making sure everyone is aware of the shortfalls of Islam. I think it is great to shine a light on these problems. That is how changes will be made.

It seems as though some believe Islam will never change. Change is inevitable, and in our global community, where the oppressed (whether women, children or minorities learn that they don't have to accept how things have been, I believe change will happen more quickly than ever before.

I wish it could happen today or tomorrow, but it will take at least a generation. Nonetheless I believe things will improve for Muslim women because Muslims will demand it.

Most Muslim schools of jurisprudence agree that the penalty for apostasy under sharia law is death.

Reform and revision are possible, but it's going to be a bloody path.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by First Lady

It was deleted out of my courtesy to another forum member (YOU) as you were offended. As I understand it you extracted somehow that it was indicitive of all Muslims.
Anyone can see the pic, it has been floating on the web for a least 3 years. Just search Google images with Mohammed and Lego.



All I can say is ... WOW.

I will find it very hard to take anything you post seriously after a bizarre comment like this.

WOW. Nice try again.

Why so bizarre?

Its hard to believe that someone as politically aware as yourself cannot see that an image that includes the phrase "Play as if you are prophet Mohammed" and "contains 23 wives including 6 year old Aysha" might reflect be seen to reflect negatively on Islam and badly on your (already fringe) Party. You are a member of the executive and a former candidate no?