Alberta's Ticket Out? Poll

[Ronald Pagan]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

Not much more simple that you writing off that AB would not be part of it.

As for weather they should be a part of it or not, who knows. That's not my point.

Did you read what I said? Do you think that Canada would not veto an inclusion of Alberta the free state into NAFTA?

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by Slava

I've heard that over the past couple of days, but don't really know what to make of it. What should Stelmach be saying/doing here to "stand up" for us?

Biting my tongue, hoping I don't get too much heat over this....

I have been keeping tabs on what he is "not" doing..... you can see a few gems here:

http://www.projectalberta.com/board/...ghlight=#59702

What he should be doing, well it was outlined quite well in the WAP press release today.

http://www.wildrosealliance.ca/index...125&Itemid=135

Our phone line and email have been extremely busy, the comments and questions all are about how we could / should protect Alberta from the fallout if the coalition goes ahead.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Let me be more clear... The original provinces were granted certain amounts of seats. Provinces admitted after that were granted seats on a 'need to have' basis. Have fun changing that without changing the constitution.

It has changed considerably already in my time and it does not require contstitutional change. I might be dating myself but when I started voting, I believe we had something like 270 constituencies in Canada, now we are 308.

Edit: I just looked up the number of electoral districts or constituencies in 1972 when a federal election was called and it was 264.

There is a formula for how new federal constituencies can be added, I believe the review and change is something like every 10 years. And even if your population decreases, the constituencies in your province can never be less than the number of senate seats in your province.

[Slava]

^ Isn't that press release the ultimate "take your ball and go home" stance?

[Ronald Pagan]

It is completely inappropriate for a Premier to make political statements in favour of or against Federal parties. The premier protects the interests of their province in the federal arena by standing up for their constitutional powers. They are not, by convention, permitted to ipublicly nvolve themselves in partisan issues at the federal level. It'd be similar if Bronconnier came out and started campaigning in a provincial election for a certain party.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

There's an important public service to correcting factually incorrect assertions on a public internet site. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of people read this. They see ol'4x4 mouth off about how BC and Sask don't pay equalization and believe it to be true when it's not. In fairness, 4x4 did expand on the knowledge by statis that they pay less and less often than Alberta.

Hahaha... Lol...

Oh, Hakan. You kill me.

Bustin out the big words to be technically correct when we're in a battle of words. You win. You got me. The other western provinces indeed pay equalization payments (this year).

So, wanna talk about 2 years ago? Back when Alberta paid the lion's share? Let's talk about the. Let's talk about how Alberta would be today without a piano tied to it's ass... Huh?

How about in two years from now when oil is back up to $100/bbl? Then what? 'Splitting Hairs' is a nice term for avoiding the topic and just being an arse. Good job on pointing out that the other western provinces are paying. I don't recall saying that they didn't. What I recall saying is that Alberta is the province that has earned itself a chair at the table and it damn well isn't getting one. Respond to that, please.

[Calgaryborn]

I think the western provinces need to move limit the control of the federal government. The first step although a painful one would be to establish provincial police forces. I have a great deal of respect for the good work and the long tradition of the RCMP but, when it comes down to it they are state police who will act in the Federal interest if it comes to a legal conflict between the Feds and the Western provinces. Secondly after the provincial police force is established we need to separate provincial taxation from the Federal system. The provincial tax forms and all the money collected from taxation should go to a provincial center out of the control of the Federal Government. Money is power and if the Federal government won't share power with the provinces there could come a day when we would collectively withhold tax money from the Federal government.

I don't want to separate or even follow Quebec's example and continually blackmailing the Federal government with separation. I just can't see a fair shake for the provinces with so much control coming from Ottawa. We need to level the field.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

It is completely inappropriate for a Premier to make political statements in favour of or against Federal parties. The premier protects the interests of their province in the federal arena by standing up for their constitutional powers. They are not, by convention, permitted to ipublicly nvolve themselves in partisan issues at the federal level. It'd be similar if Bronconnier came out and started campaigning in a provincial election for a certain party.

Tell that to newfoundland, quebec, alberta, ontario...probably bc at some point in time.

What manual you're reading that from must have been locked in time capsule in 1960 or so.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by 4X4

'Splitting Hairs' is a nice term for avoiding the topic and just being an arse.

4X4, we might not agree on a lot of these political matters, but that line is hilarious!

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by Slava

^ Isn't that press release the ultimate "take your ball and go home" stance?

No, it's standing up for our provincial rights.

They have been undermined for years; the coalition will put it into high gear to hell.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I think the western provinces need to move limit the control of the federal government. The first step although a painful one would be to establish provincial police forces. I have a great deal of respect for the good work and the long tradition of the RCMP but, when it comes down to it they are state police who will act in the Federal interest if it comes to a legal conflict between the Feds and the Western provinces. Secondly after the provincial police force is established we need to separate provincial taxation from the Federal system. The provincial tax forms and all the money collected from taxation should go to a provincial center out of the control of the Federal Government. Money is power and if the Federal government won't share power with the provinces there could come a day when we would collectively withhold tax money from the Federal government.

I don't want to separate or even follow Quebec's example and continually blackmailing the Federal government with separation. I just can't see a fair shake for the provinces with so much control coming from Ottawa. We need to level the field.

And apparently both Alberta and BC have this question coming up in the near future. I believe that last time, we signed a 20 year contract to continue using the RCMP.

It would be a huge statement if these 2 provinces did otherwise this time.

[4X4]

I enjoy 'debating' with you, Slava. Can't be said for some others.

[C_Rush]

I don't think splintering Confederation is a solution, for the same reason the Federal government has fought long and hard to prevent Quebec's split. But the tomfoolery taking place in Ottawa right now is pretty hard to swallow.

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

It is completely inappropriate for a Premier to make political statements in favour of or against Federal parties. The premier protects the interests of their province in the federal arena by standing up for their constitutional powers. They are not, by convention, permitted to ipublicly nvolve themselves in partisan issues at the federal level. It'd be similar if Bronconnier came out and started campaigning in a provincial election for a certain party.

You are contradicting yourself. The issues at the federal level do infringe on things that are provincial constitutional domain.

Your second sentence is exactly why Stelmach should be saying something.

He should be virously defending us from federal infringment, whether that comes from the right, left or centre.... regardless of the party..

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by redforever

And apparently both Alberta and BC have this question coming up in the near future. I believe that last time, we signed a 20 year contract to continue using the RCMP.

It would be a huge statement if these 2 provinces did otherwise this time.

Do you know when these contracts come up for review?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by 4X4

I enjoy 'debating' with you, Slava. Can't be said for some others.

In this case I feel your pain. I've lived in Alberta my entire life, and never voted for a winner in an election....in other words my votes are constantly rendered useless. I do believe strongly in electoral reform, and sadly it will never happen because you would have to open the constitution. Its the same battle as what you are talking about federally...you want the Alberta votes/opinions to count as we've earned our place. I don't disagree with that stance at all.

I know that there were two proposals that were put forth in years past about separation. One was called "Cascadia" and was more BC, Washington, Alaska and Oregon. The other (where the name escapes me) was BC, Oregon, Washington, Alberta,Saskatchewan and Yukon. These two ideas have been pretty well thought out and are pretty hard to argue with (even for an ardent nationalist like myself!). IMO they are a lot more feasible than Alberta leaving with Manitoba and Saskatchewan alone.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by First Lady

You are contradicting yourself. The issues at the federal level do infringe on things that are provincial constitutional domain.

Your second sentence is exactly why Stelmach should be saying something.

He should be virously defending us from federal infringment, whether that comes from the right, left or centre.... regardless of the party..

OK, but can you just outline where our rights are being infringed upon as a province, so that we can justify pulling our money?

[Ronald Pagan]

Which one of the provincial powers is being infriged upon?

Here's the list:

Direct Taxation within the Province in order to the raising of a Revenue for ProvincialPurposes. 3. The borrowing of Money on the sole Credit of the Province 4. The Establishment and Tenure of Provincial Offices and the Appointment and Payment of Provincial Officers. 5. The Management and Sale of the Public Lands belonging to the Province and of the Timber and Wood thereon. 6. The Establishment, Maintenance, and Management of Public and Reformatory Prisons in and for the Province. 7. The Establishment, Maintenance, and Management of Hospitals, Asylums, Charities, and Eleemosynary Institutions in and for the Province, other than Marine Hospitals. 8. Municipal Institutions in the Province. 9. Shop, Saloon, Tavern, Auctioneer, and other Licences in order to the raising of a Revenue for Provincial, Local, or Municipal Purposes. 10. Local Works and Undertakings other than such as are of the following Classes:

(a) Lines of Steam or other Ships, Railways, Canals, Telegraphs, and other Works and Undertakings connecting the Province with any other or others of the Provinces, or extending beyond the Limits of the Province: (b) Lines of Steam Ships between the Province and any British or Foreign Country: (c) Such Works as, although wholly situate within the Province, are before or after their Execution declared by the Parliament of Canada to be for the general Advantage of Canada or for the Advantage of Two or more of the Provinces.

11. The Incorporation of Companies with Provincial Objects. 12. The Solemnization of Marriage in the Province. 13. Property and Civil Rights in the Province. 14. The Administration of Justice in the Province, including the Constitution, Maintenance, and Organization of Provincial Courts, both of Civil and of Criminal Jurisdiction, and including Procedure in Civil Matters in those Courts. 15. The Imposition of Punishment by Fine, Penalty, or Imprisonment for enforcing any Law of the Province made in relation to any Matter coming within any of the Classes of Subjects enumerated in this Section. 16. Generally all Matters of a merely local or private Nature in the Province

Edit:

Forgot Resources, Education and Health (big ones to forget I know)

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Do you know when these contracts come up for review?

I believe within this year or the next.

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by Slava

OK, but can you just outline where our rights are being infringed upon as a province, so that we can justify pulling our money?

Pensions, policing and taxation are the three big ones. These are all provincial jurisdiction.