China needs to chill out. Big time.

[flamey_mcflame]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

Wow...





There are serious talks in high levels of governments in all these countries that would suggest a boycott is not only possible, but plausible.

.

That is absolutely not true. Please reference even one country who's government has stated that a boycott is plausible. I understand your views on Tibet. But to throw around a statement like that does not further your argument. My point on Tibet is that it is an issue that might be of human rights but it does not trump the reality of world and how these countries value economics over the needs of a small land. No super power holds an ethical upper hand in how they operate in this world.

[PYroMaNiaC]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

Your comments are fair and reasonable. I haven't gone so far as to boycott anything and everything US, but I certainly have a personal boycott on many US corporations that I see as being unethical. I won't get into which ones and why as that would be another debate entirely. But I think one of the important and effective ways for me to protest things I see as wrong is to do so with my pocket book. Ultimately, that's all that matters to these guys. And I let them know as well. I also realize that I'm whizzing into the wind as one small voice in the wind, but I still have to do it....

Edit: I'm not advocating a boycott of the Olympics themselves. In my first post on this, it outlined that I'm boycotting wherever possible the corporate sponsors of the Olympics, and letting them know why. I'm not advocating that the athletes should boycott the Olympics, nor that people should not watch or attend in support of the athletes. I intend to watch myself. But if Nike for example is an official sponsor, I'm going to boycott Nike and let them know why in the hopes that if there's enough people do this it will filter back to China's government and industry leaders. Am I whizzing in the wind? Probably. But it feels good to at least try and get a message through.

It's only whizzing in the wind if it's just you. But you have a voice too, not just a wallet. Use your voice to spread the word. Then others can put their wallets to better use elsewhere too.

There are places I won't shop at because of bad service. I take my money elsewhere, but I also tell people. It's common knowledge in the retail sector that one poorly serviced customer effects 10 other shoppers.

I don't see why that policy doesn't or wouldn't work for unethical businesses.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Domer

I am a Tibetan living in Calgary. It has been a very emotional period for the last few days for all the Tibetans in Calgary.

China occupied Tibet in 1959 under the pretext of "Liberation" (from whom???) and has controlled the land since then. Dalai Lama was forced to flee to exile and there was an exodus of Tibetans who have now settled in India in Dharamsala. Dalai Lama has worked tirelessly for peace and non-violence and pretty much forced Democracy onto Tibetan People and has a functioning elected Government in exile in India with a Prime Minister. Dalai Lama has tried to negotiate with China for a peaceful solution and has even settled for an Autonomous Region. But China has made preconditions saying that Dalai Lama needs to say that 1. Tibet has always been a part of China and 2. Taiwan is also a part of China. But how can Dalai Lama go back into history and change facts or with all his sincerity say something that he doesn’t believe in. And #2, who are we to comment to the political status of Taiwan. So that negotiations have not borne any results.

It is the Tibetans left behind in Tibet that is facing the brunt of the situation. China has given incentives to Han Chinese to move to Tibet so that Tibetans are now outnumbered in their own land. It is an offence to practice your religious faith and even 13 year olds, peacefully demonstrating for religious freedoms, are jailed for over 10 years. Tibetan graduates can’t find employment as they don’t know Chinese.

It is almost like your Chinese neighbor decides to move into your house (supposedly to “help” you without your asking), brings in his whole family and ask you to move into the garage. Tells you to learn Chinese if you want to live in this house; closes the door and shoots if your kid tries to sneak out. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nangpa_La_killings. )
Builds a huge driveway so that they can move out your TVs and stuff; Brags to the whole neighborhood of how nice they have been by building a driveway for you.


Right now, there are reportings of Chinese soldiers doing door to door search and killing young Tibetans at random.

FREE TIBET

I've gotta say, the 25 or so posts since this one that have failed to reply to it are as apt a bit of social commentary as you're likely to find. The first and only post presented with any kind of a personal, human connection to what's going on in Tibet and it gets totally blown over for continued intellectual debate about the politics of the situation by those with no personal attachment.

Let the cynics rule the day...

I don't mean this as a criticism of other posters in this thread. I'm just wanting to point it out as an interesting social mirror.

[troutman]

Dalai Lama has worked tirelessly for peace and non-violence and pretty much forced Democracy onto Tibetan People and has a functioning elected Government in exile in India with a Prime Minister.


I did not know this (elected government), and I am encouraged by it.

[Cowboy89]

I wonder if there's going to be a protest at the Chinese Consulate in Calgary sometime soon.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

I wonder if there's going to be a protest at the Chinese Consulate in Calgary sometime soon.

I was thinking that too... if anyone in that community wants to see a boycott or any sort of condemnation, it isn't going to happen without some jarring protests. It certainly won't happen on its own.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

I wonder if there's going to be a protest at the Chinese Consulate in Calgary sometime soon.

I walked by a "Free Tibet" protest last Thursday on the corner of 6th ave and 9th Street SW.

[Domer]

There has been constant protest at the chinese consulate in Calgary. There is a protest planned for Tomorrow Wednesday 4PM. And they are planning on a non-violent protest. The consulate is at 1011-6TH AVE., S.W ( On 6th Ave SW just before Telus Science centre if you are heading out towards Bowtrail). Honk on your way out of downtown if you cant be there.

Last week on friday. some of the kids scaled the chinese consulate and put a big banner "SAVE TIBET" on the roof. One of the kid, 15 year old, was taken in by the consulate guy and dragged to the basement, kicked, spat on and told that he would be shot if it had been in China. (Glad we are in CANADA)

Domer

[HotHotHeat]

Originally Posted by Domer

There has been constant protest at the chinese consulate in Calgary. There is a protest planned for Tomorrow Wednesday 4PM. And they are planning on a non-violent protest. The consulate is at 1011-6TH AVE., S.W ( On 6th Ave SW just before Telus Science centre if you are heading out towards Bowtrail). Honk on your way out of downtown if you cant be there.

Last week on friday. some of the kids scaled the chinese consulate and put a big banner "SAVE TIBET" on the roof. One of the kid, 15 year old, was taken in by the consulate guy and dragged to the basement, kicked, spat on and told that he would be shot if it had been in China. (Glad we are in CANADA)

Domer

That's a pretty strong charge. Doesn't the kid want to press charges? Has he spoken to a lawyer? Or is this just hearsay?

Not that I doubt it, the opposite actually.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

That's a pretty strong charge. Doesn't the kid want to press charges? Has he spoken to a lawyer? Or is this just hearsay?

Not that I doubt it, the opposite actually.

I doubt it's possible to press charges for anything that occurs on consulate property. Wouldn't that be considered property that is sovereign to China, not Canada?

[Domer]

That's a pretty strong charge. Doesn't the kid want to press charges? Has he spoken to a lawyer? Or is this just hearsay?

I talked to the 15 year old kid himself and comes from his own mouth.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

I doubt it's possible to press charges for anything that occurs on consulate property. Wouldn't that be considered property that is sovereign to China, not Canada?

Maybe someone with more international law education knows better than me... but I think consulates are still host soil, while only embassies are granted the status of being foreign, while still actually still belonging to the host nation. That whole embassy land = foreign soil is not completely accurate.

However, foreign dignitaries tend to have diplomatic immunity, though this is typically reserved for high ranking officials. Since this was likely some stooge, it may not extend to them. If it did, Canada could have that person expelled and launch a formal protest. Its also very possible that the assailant is a Canadian national with Chinese citizenship (or vice versa), in which case the individual can be prosecuted.

Its worth pursuing (if true) if I was them. At the very least, it may spark a media frenzy.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by flamey_mcflame

Reality always trumps right/wrong and ethics. What world are you living in??

Simply because something is, does not mean it should be.

The policies of the democracies of the West CAN change away from simple equations of nation-states playing power politics IF sufficient momentum is imparted to them by the electorate. For one example, the divestiture of the vast majority of the colonial empires after WWII was brought about not only by the realization that they were too expensive to maintain, but also the waning of the imperialistic mindset that formerly characterized the peoples of the colonial powers.

The arrogant thugs in charge in China don't want to allow their colonies - not only Tibet, but also Turkestan and even Taiwan (if they could get their hands on it) to be free - but that doesn't mean we should condone their actions by acquiescing to their delusions that these regions are part of a mythical "China" that does not exist and never has. I, for one, hope the pressures brought about by rapid economic expansion and the increasing exposure of the common people to international influence can bring down their ramshackle, corrupt system - and anything we can do to further that cause, be it supporting the Tibetan protests, boycotting sub-standard Chinese goods, or pressuring our governments to hold them accountable is for the better.

As for politicizing the Olympics, much like Hitler in his time, the Chinese government wants to use this opportunity to show the world how their system and nation is supreme and worthy of emulation - I can only hope some athlete takes it upon him or herself to show them up by winning a gold and shouting "Free Tibet" from the podium, thereby showing them up for the sham artists and tyrants that they are.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Maybe someone with more international law education knows better than me... but I think consulates are still host soil, while only embassies are granted the status of being foreign, while still actually still belonging to the host nation. That whole embassy land = foreign soil is not completely accurate.

However, foreign dignitaries tend to have diplomatic immunity, though this is typically reserved for high ranking officials. Since this was likely some stooge, it may not extend to them. If it did, Canada could have that person expelled and launch a formal protest. Its also very possible that the assailant is a Canadian national with Chinese citizenship (or vice versa), in which case the individual can be prosecuted.

Its worth pursuing (if true) if I was them. At the very least, it may spark a media frenzy.

Ya, I'm not sure about that distinction either, so I checked Wikipedia about it.

The following excerpt is what Wikipedia had to say:

"Contrary to popular belief, although many of the staff of consulates may be career diplomats they do not generally have diplomatic immunity (unless they are also accredited as such). Immunities and privileges for consuls and accredited staff of consulates under the relevant international conventions are generally limited to actions undertaken in their official capacity and, with respect to the consulate itself, to those required for official duties. In practice, the extension and application of consular privileges and immunities can be subject to wide discrepancies from country to country."

So if I read that right, consulates are not generally sovereign, but there are exceptions which are generally linked to any individual immunity that consulate staff might have.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by jammies

I can only hope some athlete takes it upon him or herself to show them up by winning a gold and shouting "Free Tibet" from the podium, thereby showing them up for the sham artists and tyrants that they are.

That would be positively scandalous! I almost hope it happens!

What could they really do? Shoot the athlete? arrest them? with the eyes of the world on them...

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by jammies

/snip

As for politicizing the Olympics, much like Hitler in his time, the Chinese government wants to use this opportunity to show the world how their system and nation is supreme and worthy of emulation - I can only hope some athlete takes it upon him or herself to show them up by winning a gold and shouting "Free Tibet" from the podium, thereby showing them up for the sham artists and tyrants that they are.

Absolutely. A modern Jesse Owens would be wonderful.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Ford Prefect

Ya, I'm not sure about that distinction either, so I checked Wikipedia about it.

The following excerpt is what Wikipedia had to say:

"Contrary to popular belief, although many of the staff of consulates may be career diplomats they do not generally have diplomatic immunity (unless they are also accredited as such). Immunities and privileges for consuls and accredited staff of consulates under the relevant international conventions are generally limited to actions undertaken in their official capacity and, with respect to the consulate itself, to those required for official duties. In practice, the extension and application of consular privileges and immunities can be subject to wide discrepancies from country to country."

So if I read that right, consulates are not generally sovereign, but there are exceptions which are generally linked to any individual immunity that consulate staff might have.

That sounds about right with what I was taught. In other words, unless that was official consulate business, or that fella was the Consul General of the Calgary Consulate or another individual with diplomatic immunity, he's fair game.

[Cowboy89]

Another issue of note is why there even is a Chinese consulate in Calgary of all places. Due to some of the CSIS report out there I would suggest that their presence here isn't on the up and up (Ie industrial espionage, organized crime ties, attempts at cultural influence for the local Chinese population). So I wonder if you prove to be an irratant to them during protests here whether or not they have connections to people here in Calgary that could hypothetically make your life miserable and other connections to the local powers that be to look the other way while it's happening.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

Another issue of note is why there even is a Chinese consulate in Calgary of all places. Due to some of the CSIS report out there I would suggest that their presence here isn't on the up and up (Ie industrial espionage, organized crime ties, attempts at cultural influence for the local Chinese population). So I wonder if you prove to be an irratant to them during protests here whether or not they have connections to people here in Calgary that could hypothetically make your life miserable and other connections to the local powers that be to look the other way while it's happening.

Calgary does make sense, seeing as its the fourth largest city and has a sizable Chinese population.

I believe they have consulates in Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Edmonton and one other city as well.

That being said, I've heard that their activities are not always on the up-and-up.

[Domer]

Here is the link to the arrest of the Tibetan in calgary

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/b...hts-group.aspx

Domer