British Columbia adopts ambitious Carbon Tax

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Table 5

ok, mel, show me one example where i called you a name. you're still just rambling on with your cliches and not adding any sort of substance.



ok, so how about you propose some solutions if you don't like this one. It's easy enough to not do anything and complain about it...but what would you do to cut carbon emissions?

Hey why dont we outfit the entire world population with state of the art breathing apparatuses that take in CO2 and converts it to oxgen like trees and such do!!! Then hit up the cars....

All this does is ding poor people...The rich who can afford to live in Vancouver and Victoria will still absorb the costs and continue to drive...

The working man who lives in Maple Ridge because he cant afford the overpriced cost of a home or condo in Vancouver will get dinged...Currently for him/her to take transit downtown for the day will cost him 10 dollars round trip...so for a family of 4 you are looking at 40 dollars to go the aquarium, just to get there, on a saturday....may as well drive, even with the carbon tax.....all the people in the rest of the province where transit doesnt fit their needs, where temperatures get down right cold....will just have to deal with it, absorb it and do nothing else to change, because well they can't or don't want too.

BC can be carbon neutral and it still won't mean a damn thing as long as the US/China and the rest of canada and other nations do nothing...

This is the first carbon tax of its kind in North America, and last i checked in the only place to have an Olympics with a budget completely out of control...so ya i think its safe to say...what this money will be used for, judging by how goverments worked in the past, it isnt out of line...

You should be outraged that a goverment is using your cause to hide behind another stupid, illogical liberal tax hike.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

I'm certainly not saying any other parties do or don't have a chance to win, I'm just saying the Conservative Party isn't just doing whatever they want regardless to voter's feelings. They can't impose any legislation/policies they want without expecting consequences. Personally I think adopting more 'green' policies is one of the only ways the Con's can keep power, by marginlizing the Greens/NDP/Liberals by taking some of their best ideas and adopting them.


This might all be true... but it still doesn't mean the Cons can do whatever they want regardless of voter's opinions/feelings on the issues. They may have more leeway than other provincial governments, but if Stelmach introduced a carbon tax tomorrow you'd hear bloody murder across the province.

Also, while people may associate the Alberta Liberals with the Federal Liberals, that's got to be mostly due to ignorance... the Alberta Liberal Party didn't have anything to do with Federal Liberal corruption (of course, some people think if you join any party with the word 'Liberal' in it you're a crook).

Alright, you dont think they could implement it, I think they could easily implement it and still win in the current environment. No more needs to be said.

[Mccree]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Well, Taft does have a few good ideas that I do like, namely, the City Charters, reducing royalties on natural gas, 10% limit on rent increases (though I would make it inflation max, unless an inspection/appraisal at the landlord's expense is undertaken), and the healthcare specific high schools. However, he carries the stigma, he's not inspiring, and his campaign has not been very good. Still, its between him and the Alliance... the debate will decide it for me.

I still maintain the hypothetical amalgamation of the Liberals and Alliance would be the ideal party for Alberta. Pragmatic fiscal conservatism, with a moderate, urbancentric lean. Of course, the words Alliance and Liberal would have to go... both have a negative connotation. When people hear "Alliance" they think church (or maybe Star Wars), and that's not what plays here. Liberal connotation is obvious.

I think the Healthcare high schools is a Tory thing

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by evman150

This tree hugging commie applauds the government of the province of British Columbia for being the world leader in the conservation of our planet.

Seriously, today I'm just that much prouder to be a British Columbian.

Of course you are. That is the whole point. While the government is stealing Joe Public blind and blowing his hard earned money on government waste. He will applaud the tax hike because he is made to believe by paying the tax (or avoiding to pay the tax thus reducing emissions), he is doing his part in showing the world that BC is the world leader in saving the planet from global warming. Well played by the BC provincial government. Hike taxes and make the citizens proud.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Mccree

I think the Healthcare high schools is a Tory thing

I think you might be right... it was on the Herald site under the Liberals, but I notice its gone now.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

will just have to deal with it, absorb it and do nothing else to change, because well they can't or don't want too.

The people that plain old don't want to change, who cares? Some people don't want to pay income taxes either. Other people don't want to follow the speed limit.

It's a new rule, like it or lump it. They don't have to absorb it if they don't like it. They can use (at current prices) roughly 2% less gas.

[Resolute 14]

Simply put, gasoline consumption isn't going to be seriously affected. Once a mental barrier is broken, people stop fearing it, i.e.: $1 gas. (incidentally, its being predicted the pump price of gas could rise as much as 10 cents/litre in the next 10-14 days, people will whine, but continue to fill up.)

So, in this respect, the only thing the B.C. government is likely to accomplish with a gas tax is to create a ton of tax revenue. Trucking companies, forestry companies, and anyone else who has to rely on transportation costs are going to pass this onto the consumer. Net result, a whole lot of inflation with negligable environmental benefit.

That does, however, leave the tax revenue unaccounted for. Presuming they don't sneak a way to dump it into general revenues, I would have to ask what, exactly, the B.C. government intends to spend this money on? What kind of environmental proposals do they have?

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Simply put, gasoline consumption isn't going to be seriously affected. Once a mental barrier is broken, people stop fearing it, i.e.: $1 gas. (incidentally, its being predicted the pump price of gas could rise as much as 10 cents/litre in the next 10-14 days, people will whine, but continue to fill up.)

So, in this respect, the only thing the B.C. government is likely to accomplish with a gas tax is to create a ton of tax revenue. Trucking companies, forestry companies, and anyone else who has to rely on transportation costs are going to pass this onto the consumer. Net result, a whole lot of inflation with negligable environmental benefit.

That does, however, leave the tax revenue unaccounted for. Presuming they don't sneak a way to dump it into general revenues, I would have to ask what, exactly, the B.C. government intends to spend this money on? What kind of environmental proposals do they have?

Well they brought in a Provicial Sales Tax, which in BC is actually called the Social Service Tax...I don't think i need to tell you how that was sugar coated to the public and i dont think i need to tell you how well that actually worked...

The Carbon Tax should be renamed the Olympic Tax...because with a 6 Billion price tag and rising...they need to get that money from somewhere

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Alright, you dont think they could implement it, I think they could easily implement it and still win in the current environment. No more needs to be said.

I didn't say they couldn't do it, I surmised the reason they don't do it is because it's something Albertan's don't want.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Hate being late for the party. Good on British Columbia for doing something on this issue. This is a crisis that needs solid leadership, and doing anything at this point is solid leadership.

Some comments...

* After reading this thread I have no idea how long this planet will maintain a survivable atmosphere based on the commentary of most. Seriously, you people do realize that what you do to the planet you leave behind for your children and grand children? You are aware that if we damage the atmosphere, and make it less inhabitable, that we doom future generations to a life less fulfilling than we had. You're failure to accept responsibility may be exactly what causes the cancers that kill your offspring.

I want you to realize that as we alter the environment we damage the whole eco-system. There is a tolerance in these systems, and something as small as a degree change in temperature can be the difference from saving, or killing off an eco-system. I'll use two examples, both of which should register to you Canadians. The infamous polar bear issue is a big one. We may force this mammal to extinction because of our abuse of the atmosphere. The rising temperatures are destroying the ice caps, and with it, the oceans and the life that counts on the ice. The second, should really hit home with you Albertans and British Columbians. The pine beetle is ravaging the forests of the Pacific Northwest, and its ruining a whole industry. The pine beetle is flourishing because of the mild winters. There are no longer the extended cold months that have killed the beetle. They survive the winters and feast on the forests. This is because of the minor change in climate. That is just a couple of examples. You could also look at food sticks and what will happen if temperatures continue to rise. We will literally stave ourselves to death as our food sticks die off. Humans may be very adaptable, but plants and animals do not adapt at the same rapid rate. We must take this into consideration.

* I've read a lot of comments about people hating the solution. It's usually the same ones who hate every solution proposed. My big question to you is, What's the solution? If you are so sure that the proposed solutions are incorrect, then what is the right one? It's easy to be a critic, but how about wowing everyone with your brilliance and frame a potential solution.

* There's also this defeatist attitude where people say, well if the US doesn't do it, why should we do it? If the US doesn't do it, then China's not going to do it. So if no one else is going to do, fack it, we shouldn't do anything either. Do you people listen to yourself? Have you people ever faced a real challenge that you didn't think you'd be able to work through? Did you ever succeed? I doubt it, not with those attitudes. Leadership has to start somewhere. The majority of the world is on board with this idea (hello Kyoto Accord), so all its going to take is one western country to let their balls drop and man up to the challenge. Wouldn't it be wonderful if Canada lead that way? We can make a difference if we try.

* Finally, the I'm going to take my ball and go home mentality has to stop (I'm going to burn a ton of wood!!!). You're already at home. There's no where else to go. You're acting like the spolied little emo girl who runs to her room when she's upset and sits there cutting herself. You're not only screwing yourself up, but you're hurting your family and your neighbors.

Those are just some quick comments that came to mind while reading through this thread. Like said earlier, I wonder how long we have on this planet as a species. I can't imagine being 20-something and staring down the barrel of this gun. You feel invincible right now, but wait until you start having kids and begin to face your mortality. I look into the eyes of my great-grand nieces and I get sad wondering what they have to look forward to. Once you guys start hitting that age of worrying about what you leave behind you'll change your attitude. You'll begin to appreciate the wonderful planet we have, and maybe start to believe that its worth taking care of.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Hate being late for the party. Good on British Columbia for doing something on this issue. This is a crisis that needs solid leadership, and doing anything at this point is solid leadership.

This is the only part worthy of comment

What exactly is BC doing? Besides hiding a tax grab behind the enviroment banner?


doing anything at this point is solid leadership - Getting results is solid leadership, taxation does not produce results, nor does it provide solutions.

As for the rest of your rant, all i got outta that, is that if you dont agree with this (the carbon tax), your are contributing to the problem, which once again is pretty presumptuous and typical from that side of the spectrum.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

This is the only part worthy of comment

What exactly is BC doing? Besides hiding a tax grab behind the enviroment banner?

And you know this how exactly? If they have promised that all of the money would be used to support clean technologies, then what's the complaint? Oh, let me guess, you looked in your crystal ball and can see what the government will do on this issue. Funny, but when EXPERTS in their scientific field of study look into THEIR crystal ball, you discount their views and claim they can't be trusted. Yet we are to trust your expertise. Now what are your qualifications again?

doing anything at this point is solid leadership - Getting results is solid leadership, taxation does not produce results, nor does it provide solutions.

So how do you get results without doing something in the first place? Nice contradiction you walked into there, bright guy.

As for the rest of your rant, all i got outta that, is that if you dont agree with this (the carbon tax), your are contributing to the problem, which once again is pretty presumptuous and typical from that side of the spectrum.

Actually, if you read my post you would see that I didn't take that position at all. My comments were directed mostly at attitudes and ignorance in posts more than say anything about following this particular solution. In fact, I CHALLENGED you to step up and propose a solution that YOU think would work. You ignored that. So lets try again.

WHAT SOLUTION DO YOU THINK WOULD WORK IN FINDING SOLUTIONS TO THIS PARTICULAR CRISIS?

Now it must be something that is immediate and self-sustaining or provide incentives for people to make a change in lifestyle or technology. Fire away. THE GAUNTLET IS DOWN.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

And you know this how exactly? If they have promised that all of the money would be used to support clean technologies, then what's the complaint? Oh, let me guess, you looked in your crystal ball and can see what the government will do on this issue. Funny, but when EXPERTS in their scientific field of study look into THEIR crystal ball, you discount their views and claim they can't be trusted. Yet we are to trust your expertise. Now what are your qualifications again?



So how do you get results without doing something in the first place? Nice contradiction you walked into there, bright guy.



Actually, if you read my post you would see that I didn't take that position at all. My comments were directed mostly at attitudes and ignorance in posts more than say anything about following this particular solution. In fact, I CHALLENGED you to step up and propose a solution that YOU think would work. You ignored that. So lets try again.

WHAT SOLUTION DO YOU THINK WOULD WORK IN FINDING SOLUTIONS TO THIS PARTICULAR CRISIS?

Now it must be something that is immediate and self-sustaining or provide incentives for people to make a change in lifestyle or technology. Fire away. THE GAUNTLET IS DOWN.

1. Goverments have a long history of sugar coating a reason for a new tax....Has the GST paid down out national debt yet? Is income tax still paying for WW1? Did the Social Services Tax (known as BC Provincial Sales Tax) do has it was advertised? How many times does the boy have to cry wolf. Like i said taxation isnt a solution.


2. You get results by implementing something that will work, this issue isnt a provincial issue, it is a global issue, A carbon tax in BC wont do a damn thing to help the enviroment. Forcing people isnt a solution, making something attractive to people is a better way. Don't tell me people in BC don't already head the carbon cutting call compared to most provinces.

3. The reality is their is no immediate solution - a solution requires all countries on board, something that everyone is comfortable with, it requires advances in technology and it also requires concrete sciecne.

I spend 20 bucks on gas every 2 weeks, i walk or bike and chose to live close to all ammentities that i require. In fact i didnt have a car for about 3 years, because i didnt require it - when i did, i would rent then I bought a brand new car that the goverment gave me a rebate for......i buy local fruit and vegetables in bulk and freeze them..I do my part to the best of my abilities...but this solution requires an effort from everyone on this planet, everyone....even if BC was carbon neutral, it wouldnt even make a dent in this issue.

mmm asking for my qualifications, when you just formed an opinion on something based on posters at hfboards....yikes.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

I'll use two examples, both of which should register to you Canadians. The infamous polar bear issue is a big one. We may force this mammal to extinction because of our abuse of the atmosphere. The rising temperatures are destroying the ice caps, and with it, the oceans and the life that counts on the ice. The second, should really hit home with you Albertans and British Columbians. The pine beetle is ravaging the forests of the Pacific Northwest, and its ruining a whole industry. The pine beetle is flourishing because of the mild winters. There are no longer the extended cold months that have killed the beetle. They survive the winters and feast on the forests. This is because of the minor change in climate. That is just a couple of examples. You could also look at food sticks and what will happen if temperatures continue to rise. We will literally stave ourselves to death as our food sticks die off. Humans may be very adaptable, but plants and animals do not adapt at the same rapid rate. We must take this into consideration.

I still haven't decided if what BC is doing will provide any results. Like some have said, it will not stop 1 tonne of CO2 from entering the atmosphere. It is simply a tax. Now, if the government does what it says it is going to do with the taxes it collects then it may help off set the CO2, that will remain to be seen. As for your comments above. I just want to scream when people try and make this arguement. This has happened in the past and both the forest and the polar bear survived. Do you realize that it was only 150-200 years ago that the NW passage was free for sail boats to navigate? What happened to the bears then?

As for the pine beetle, I don't have any stats on there histroy in North America at the moment but I am sure this wont be the first time that entire forests were wiped out. Heck, entire forests were wiped out in the past because of forest fires. That is nature. So don't blame this on humans.

[icarus]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Do you realize that it was only 150-200 years ago that the NW passage was free for sail boats to navigate? What happened to the bears then?

I for one did not realize that. Do you have a link?

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

* I've read a lot of comments about people hating the solution. It's usually the same ones who hate every solution proposed. My big question to you is, What's the solution? If you are so sure that the proposed solutions are incorrect, then what is the right one? It's easy to be a critic, but how about wowing everyone with your brilliance and frame a potential solution.

That's assuming a solution is neccessary, if the problem isn't being misjudged, or a solution will even have any efficacy in changing global warming. Coming up with a solution, especially one with just drastic measures when the problem isn't neccessarily defined seems imprudent. Global Warming is as much a bandwagon that governments like to jump on for easy PR policies when the entire concept of carbon regulation, carbon taxes, carbon credits, etc. is so ambiguous in terms of being outright uncharted territory if not somewhat ridiculous in and of itself that individuals, corporations, and even entire countries can buy credits to offset pollution or somehow be coerced into reducing pollution through economic penalties...all run by governments who somehow are suddenly experts in managing such things when on face value, it's just another avenue for collecting revenue. I am yet to be fully convinced that the phenomenon of global warming is totally caused by human activity and a cessation or cutback in human activity in small pockets by a few governments will have any efficacy in changing emerging climate patterns.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by icarus

I for one did not realize that. Do you have a link?

Not sure if that is completely correct, but prior to the "little ice age" there is speculation that some of it was opened up

Around the time of the Viking sagas and for at least two more centuries (a conservative interval from AD 1000 to 1200 that also happens to include the dates allotted to some of the larger Norse ships), prior to the Little Ice Age some limited regions of the Arctic may have been somewhat warmer than they were in the early twentieth century, and were certainly warmer than they were in the depths of the Little Ice Age (see Medieval Warm Period). Also, the sea-level in the Arctic was different from that of the present day.[36] Because of glacial rebound land levels of the land masses about the Northwest Passage have risen upwards of 20 m in the centuries after the Viking times.

[icarus]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Not sure if that is completely correct, but prior to the "little ice age" there is speculation that some of it was opened up

So I guess sail boats did not navigate the northwest passage then.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by icarus

So I guess sail boats did not navigate the northwest passage then.

no, it would be the vikings

[icarus]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

no, it would be the vikings

And the Vikings didn't actually find a Northwest Passage, they just visited the Easternmost islands in the Arctic.