fun with nickleback

[peter12]

I was kidding too.

What exactly is my point?

[Hakan]

Who the heck cares what country a band comes from? If they suck, they suck regardless of nationality. If a band is good I don't equate their 'goodness' to the country they come from. I equate it to the sum of the individuals in that one band making good music. Nationality has absolutely nothing to do with music.

To reiterate, Nickleback sucks.

[Phanuthier]

Originally posted by peter12+Dec 4 2004, 09:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (peter12 @ Dec 4 2004, 09:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

What can I say Pete, I only wish I could be as cool as you are.

It's just that an Internet bitch fight over who has the more knowledge and therefore better prepared to criticise Nickelback seems kind of lame to me. [/b][/quote]
He asked me what my musical credentials were to critisize Nickleback for "simple stuff' so I gave it to him. Didn't mean to be a bitch-slap fest, sorry.

Whether you like the music or think its good is purely up to you, but I was just pointing out that I think I have a strong enough musical resume to critisize Nickleback's music for being simple.

[peter12]

Originally posted by Phanuthier+Dec 4 2004, 04:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Phanuthier @ Dec 4 2004, 04:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

It's just that an Internet bitch fight over who has the more knowledge and therefore better prepared to criticise Nickelback seems kind of lame to me.

He asked me what my musical credentials were to critisize Nickleback for "simple stuff' so I gave it to him. Didn't mean to be a bitch-slap fest, sorry.

Whether you like the music or think its good is purely up to you, but I was just pointing out that I think I have a strong enough musical resume to critisize Nickleback's music for being simple. [/b][/quote]
Thats fair. I was pretty much kidding anyway. Not too mention almost anything becomes a bitch fest when Lanny is involved.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Phanuthier@Dec 4 2004, 07:12 PM

Grade 10 percussion (with RCM), member of the Westmount Percussive Performance Association - regarded around Canada as the top, non-profit, U-20 percussion ensamble in Canada.

Grade 10 piano (RCM), with multiple competition awards.

Grade 5 Harmony with RCM

Grade 4 Music History with RCM

Section Leader in High School Band

Grade 4 Counterpoint with RCM

And if you didn't know, 2 ARCT's with RCM is about equivalent to having 2 masters degrees in music.

Good enough?

Note that what I was referrign to wasn't 3/4 time. It's 4/4, generally repeated every 2 bars. Also, find me a band that actually uses their toms in non-transition places. They are far and afew. Almost all combo's are done on a hi-hat, snare and bass drum, while chorus's will usually use the other symbols (suspended, crash, ect).

Hey, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to doubt Nickleback's success. Good for them for getting as far as they do, there's actually a song or two I like from them. However, recognize that it doesn't always the most talent to make it big. With Nickleback, they took their rather simpliest music and made it big with it. Good for them.
(Edit 52: I agree with you that playign in front of an audience is not easy. That, I will agree with you, is not kids stuff. However, your ability to perform in front of an audience is independent of your musical ability - thus when you talk about their musical abiility and their performing ability, you are talking about 2 different things.)

Come on Phaneuf. If you had half of the musical background you claim you would have not made the basic mistakes you did and had known that rock was always scored in 4/4 time. As well you never would have mentioned a dotted eighth note in conjunction with a basic rock percussion beat. If you were a drummer, which I doubt, and were playing with a rock combo, you would readily admit that all breaks are in four bar sequences, working in concert with the chord changes in the 12 bar blues progression. And I doubt you would have used a misnomer like "suspend" to describe a cymbal (the varieties being ride, crash, splash, hats and china). Percussionists, especially drummers, take their craft pretty serious and would not butcher the terminology of their tools. As well no self respecting drummer calls his "kick" a bass drum. A bass drum is what some fat kid in a marching band straps to his chest and thumps out the backbeat. Good lord, its like a network tech refering to his server as a computer and his disk farm as his hard disk. You get to a certain level and you know what is the proper terminology for given equipment. Sheesh.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by peter12@Dec 4 2004, 07:13 PM
Did you two know that you are both absolute tools?

Wow, some day I hope to grow up to be half as cool as you. Of course I'd have to move back in with my mom and dad and have a lobotomy to reach the same level as you, but some day I might just get that desperate to be a zero and follow your example.

[peter12]

Nice work Lanny, you basically summed me up in one post.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Really, you aren't that hard to figure out. You aren't exactly a complex personality there Pete.

[peter12]

Just cause I don't have several raging Internet people speaking inside me at once doesn't mean I'm simple.

[Phanuthier]

Sorry Lanny, I guess you missed my point.

The drum beat Nickleback used in both were 2 bar stanza's of 4/4 timing. Whether that is the case for EVERY rock song, I don't know, because none of the music theory covered up to my level include post-1900 music. However, for you to say that stanza's are only isloated in 4 bar or whatever is not true. That was basic Grade 3 harmony. Listen to the music for yourself. The drummer repeats every 2 bars.

The dotted eighth combo with the snare, hi-hat and base is VERY common and is used by many drummers. All of the people here that know me outside of CP know what type of drummer and musician I am. I remember working one of the concerts and giving kermitology a critic of the drummer, his favourite combo's, improv's ect.

Now to the susposed "suspend" misuse... its a very common term used. One of the percussion coordinators of the Red Deer Royals (or at least former anyways, not sure if he still teaches there), regarded to be one of the best in Canada, used the word Suspended. I guess if you know the profession quite well, then you would know him. Ditto the term "kick" because the only times I've heard it being called a "kick" is when used in the context of a double kick. The base drum is the actual drum, the kick is what attaches to the base drum. When talking about the kick, you must be talking about the hammer attached to the pedel. When you have a double kick, your talking about 2 pedels for 2 hammers.

Now about my "profession" ... I'm not a profeesional percussionist. Music is just a hoppy, I'm actually an engineer (student). What terms they happen to use in the profession I do not know, but I can tell you that alot of drummer I know don't stick to one term specificaly or happen to take what they do seriously enough to blow hard chunks if someone uses the wrong term. The drummers I know care more about improv's and creativity over formal definitions.

Hey, I got an idea... how about one day, we'll get together with a drum set and figure out who knows their stuff better? Rather then banter about what terminology you happen to like. I'll supply you a spare pair since I'm guessing you've never heald a drum stick before.

But if your really hellbent on seeing my certificates, I could always take a picture when I get home just for you. I have certificates validating my level of music, rudiments, piano and percussion. I also I have pins (this sounds so corny) varifying my place in the school band, certificates and awards from the music competitions and letters from events that I have perfomed in.

[Phanuthier]

Actually Lanny, why don't you explain exactly why 4/4 is perferred for rock then 3/4, 2/4, 2/2, 6/8 or even the odd 5/4 and 7/4? And why a dotted eighth is even used at all?

And what this supposed repeated 4 bar stanza is for the percussion? Not the band, but percussion. As far as I know, the transition sure shoots down the repeated 4 bar stanza theory.

This should be... grade 2 stuff I believe.

[kermitology]

You know.. I'm in a rock band, and I can tell you in at least one of our songs we do not follow a 4/4 rhythm for the entire song. The chorus switches halfway through from 4/4 to 5/4. Creative rock isn't stuck in 4/4 time, and creativity doesn't mean you come up with 4 letters of the alphabet from A-G including sharps and flats. Though it makes for a funny story when you write a song.

The point of making fun of bands like Nickleback is that they have no sense of creativity and insiration, they just slap together a few chords, write some heart-broken words and put it on the radio. People are dumb so they like it.

Write a song that doesn't have a chorus, only a linking riff between versus, or a chrous that changes from bar to bar. Start doing something other than verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/chorus done.

And Lanny.. you mean to tell me you don't know what a pre-chorus is?

[ricosuave]

if i may step in between you kids for a second...

i actually felt the same way about nickleback. they were probably decent songs that, due to their popularity, became overplayed. to death. i got tired and resentful of the 'same old song' over and over from them.

then, i got to see them in concert the last time they were here (gratis, i might add!) and saw them play live. musically, they were tight, had a good rapport with the crowd, and honestly seemed to have fun while doing their job!

is it a little predictable? sure. but what popular group over the last 25 years HASNT gone through a form of repetition?

and is it really their fault if the kids of today, as well as the promoters and record companies, are so vacant that they cant accept anything less than that same predictability?

if anyone can become as popular and make as much money for cranking out the same 3 chord hits (as so many have done in the past) then i say power to 'em.

doesnt mean i have to listen to it!

rico

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Phanuthier+Dec 5 2004, 01:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Phanuthier @ Dec 5 2004, 01:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Actually Lanny, why don't you explain exactly why 4/4 is perferred for rock then 3/4, 2/4, 2/2, 6/8 or even the odd 5/4 and 7/4? And why a dotted eighth is even used at all?

And what this supposed repeated 4 bar stanza is for the percussion? Not the band, but percussion. As far as I know, the transition sure shoots down the repeated 4 bar stanza theory.

This should be... grade 2 stuff I believe. [/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-Phanuthier@Dec 5 2004, 01:58 AM
Actually Lanny, why don't you explain exactly why 4/4 is perferred for rock then 3/4, 2/4, 2/2, 6/8 or even the odd 5/4 and 7/4? And why a dotted eighth is even used at all?

And what this supposed repeated 4 bar stanza is for the percussion? Not the band, but percussion. As far as I know, the transition sure shoots down the repeated 4 bar stanza theory.

This should be... grade 2 stuff I believe.[/quote]
Well Phaneuf, I'll make this really simple for you. Go to your music teacher (I'm not sure who this guys is) and ask him where the roots of rock music are from. He'll tell you that ALL rock music was born from 12 bar blues. It is the base from which all rock music developed (Elvis, The Beatles, The Stones, The Who, Zepplin, etc.) all based their music on 12 bar blues. Presley, Lennon, McCartney, Townsend, Page, etc. all cut their teeth on 12 bar blues and wrote most of their early stuff in this basic style. Heck, the original "rock" drummer, Ringo Starr played this to a tee.

Here's an example of a standard rock beat.



Thecymbal or hi hat annotation is identified by the notes that look like little x's. The other line is the kick and the snare annotation. You'll notice the lack of dotted eighth notes for the cymbal, which aren't used except in a shuffle, which is not rock and is more dixieland or jazz.

Now for the uninitiated, 12 bar blues is based on 12 bars of music, where the guitar is the lead instrument, like all rock and roll. The following shows the basis of 12 bar blues.

12 Bar Blues

The 12 bars are set up where four beats (chords) are played every bar, and these twelve bars are broken down into segments where the first third plays the first dominant chord, the second third plays the second dominant chords and the third plays the third is used as a transition which sets up the major chord change or a repeat of the previous few bars (most common).

Now why was 4/4 time used? Because this was easy for the players that developed 12 bar blues who were neither familiar with musical training nor familiar with complex music theory (uneducated blacks). This was an easy subset to work from and is extremely easy for anyone to pick out. Any one who would like to pick up a Robert Johnson track can count out loud and will get to 16 beats before the first chord transition, another 6 beats to the next, another 8-12 to the third and then a transition to the next riff. Again, this is easy for the mathematically challenged and worked quite well for those not familiar with theory.

So why was another time signature (meter) used? Simplicity. The drummer's job has and always will be to lay down the backbeat which keeps time for the ensemble. His job is to play the meter which other musicians are to follow. For rock and roll that is a standard 4/4 12 bar blues basis. Looking at the examples above you will see the basis for the four bar transitions, not the two bar (eight beat) transition like Phaneuf suggests. Other registers are used but not near as often and not nearly as accepted. A great example is a 3/4, which is a waltz (Mr. Bo Jangles by the Dirt Band is played in 3/4) and can be heard as a boom-snap-snap (boom being the kick and the snap being the snare). The 4/4 can be identified as a boom-snap-boom-boom-snap, which is the most common rock beat (and called rock beat on musical scores).

Listen for yourselves. Select any rock song, especially classic rock, and listen for the transitions (cymbal crashes and tom tom rolls). Count the beats. What takes place after eight beats (Phaneuf's transition) and what happens after 12 beats, 24 and 48 beats (12 bar blues progressions). Transitions take place after 12 beats and major ntransitions take place between 44 and 48 beats. This is the basis for rock and roll. Now remember that for each snare beat that two beats have taken place (a snare beat taking place on beats two and four in a bar). Listen for the kick, a boom, and the sharp strike of the snare, a snap. The standard rock beat is a simple boom, snap, boom-boom, snap. This is the rock beat in a nutshell. Its all there for you to listen to and is evident in every single song released today. This isn't rocket science, as most guys playing rock were not raised on classical theory. They follow the kiss principle and use very basic math for keeping time. Using a dotted eighth (again, 3/16 count, or 6 beats every bar) is way too complex and does not lend itself to basic playing. Seriously Phanuef, go and talk to your teacher and talk with him about Rock and Roll and 12 bar blues. He will set you straight and fast.

And Phaneuf, anytime you want to cut heads I would be honored. Its always fun to test someone's chops, especially someone that is supposedly classically trained. But first, check your powdered wig at the door.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by kermitology@Dec 5 2004, 02:23 AM
And Lanny.. you mean to tell me you don't know what a pre-chorus is?

Yeah, its what most people call the bridge. But hey, to each his own I guess. I've never heard anyone who has written music refer to it as the "pre-chorus". Like I said elsewhere, its like a network admin refering to his disk farm as hard disk space.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by peter12@Dec 4 2004, 11:54 PM
Just cause I don't have several raging Internet people speaking inside me at once doesn't mean I'm simple.

No Peter, your posts make you simple. You bring the absolute least to the table every time you show up. You are the Forrest Gump of the internet... without the success to fall back on.

[RougeUnderoos]

That's all well and good but any musician worth his salt will tell you that Nickleback routinely uses a 9/8th Hortenth accompanied by a high-bifth skim and that is as magulated as they get.

I graduated from Hedspent Conservatory of Music in 1994 and in my professional opinion, Nickleback still sucks!

[peter12]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Dec 5 2004, 12:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Dec 5 2004, 12:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-peter12@Dec 4 2004, 11:54 PM
Just cause I don't have several raging Internet people speaking inside me at once doesn't mean I'm simple.

No Peter, your posts make you simple. You bring the absolute least to the table every time you show up. You are the Forrest Gump of the internet... without the success to fall back on.

[/b][/quote]
Yeah... so? Just because my posts don't spew venom at anyone that is dumb enough to cross my path. I am just hereto read what other people post, if I post something it is normally whatever crosses my mind. I have never felt the need to "contribute" anything as I feel there are other people on this forum that do it better than me.

Just because I don't feel the need to waste my time writing up 1000 word responses to put down another poster.

I am not here to change people's idealogy or put people down. But hey if thats what makes you feel good Lanny.

If you are like this at all in real life you must be the most despicable and pathetic person.

[Phanuthier]

Listening to the sample music, that is CERTAINLY not the beat used in the initial Nickleback songs.

Now for the uninitiated, 12 bar blues is based on 12 bars of music, where the guitar is the lead instrument, like all rock and roll. The following shows the basis of 12 bar blues.
What the hell? Can't you read? I said the DRUMS part in 2 bar stanza's, not the entire music. Listen to some Red Hot Chilli Peppers, they demostrate it very well - especially Zephyr song, which really points it out for you in the intro. These stanza's are repeated until the transition (otherwise known as "bridge") where the chorus is usually something different (especially in concert) where after, the drummer sometimes may be given a chance to improvise for a bit.

EDIT: Actually, giving this 12 bar blues crap some thought, it seems that you are talking about the entire band (or ensamble) as a whole; or guitarists or other instruments, because I drummers usually don't have the same beat during the improv.

So why was another time signature (meter) used? Simplicity. The drummer's job has and always will be to lay down the backbeat which keeps time for the ensemble. His job is to play the meter which other musicians are to follow. For rock and roll that is a standard 4/4 12 bar blues basis. Looking at the examples above you will see the basis for the four bar transitions, not the two bar (eight beat) transition like Phaneuf suggests. Other registers are used but not near as often and not nearly as accepted. A great example is a 3/4, which is a waltz (Mr. Bo Jangles by the Dirt Band is played in 3/4) and can be heard as a boom-snap-snap (boom being the kick and the snap being the snare). The 4/4 can be identified as a boom-snap-boom-boom-snap, which is the most common rock beat (and called rock beat on musical scores).
So different time signictures are used for a drummer to go into auto-pilot? s'cuse me, cause I believe something called rubato, or "robbed time" was introdued almost 300 years ago, and sure as hell is used. Otherwise, ways of creating tension or the feel of slowing down can be created by the drummers ability to try and pull forward or backwards (not sure if thats the correct terms since I was never a music conductor) while the rest stay status quo. I can tell you for sure, as can any drummer or any musician at all (or in your terms, any "self respecting drummer") that drumming is more then getting the time signicture and hitting auto-pilot. Any drummer can tell you what makes a drummer good isn't so much his technique or ability to keep time, but his ability to improvise on the spot - definatly not the template that you seem to imply.
(PS: Bonus points for telling me WHY 3/4 time is ideal for waltz)
(PS 2: Bonus points for telling me what is usually done on the snare - because is sure isn't hitting the snare with the head of your drum stick.)

Now for your last long paragraph, what I was pointing out was the REPEAT of 2 bar stanza's (8 beats) which DOES NOT include the transition or chorus. I know this from playing myself, not reading a textbook like you seem to have done. Thus you probably are right in your textbook definition and boom snap snaps and whop de dongs, but I know as a drummer what a beat, 2 bar stanza is for a drummer. I'm sticking to my knowledge as a drummer, so why don't you stick to your textbooks of boom snap dongs? Like I said, I never studied post-1900 music. Grade 3 history studies the Romantic era, Grade 4 - what I was in before I quit - was Classical.

As for what you seem to have conviniently missed, why don't you explain exactly why 4/4 is perferred for rock then 3/4, 2/4, 2/2, 6/8 or even the odd 5/4 and 7/4? And why a dotted eighth is even used at all? That will test your fundimental knowledge of music and beat as well. In fact, I think this was actually Grade 1 theory for RCM, but since I skipped that grade, it was either 1 or 2.

Finally, I would love to butt heads with you on music the next time you and I are in Calgary, or if you ever come up to Edmonton and can find me a drum set to play on. Or on a piano, where I have the same level of music. If you really were so connected with percussionists across Calgary, you would have heard about Gordon Chadney or the Westmount Percussive Performance Association (Lil' Tweed, Tocada and Tweed). Or even high schools like Sir Winston Churchill, who have Gordon Chadney helping with Percussion Ensamble. For the year and a half I played with Tocada, we were the host band at the Kiwanis music festival for the rest of the bands, as well as feature bands for special events across town. If you were as well connected, or know as many drummer or musicians in Calgary, you would know Gordon Chadney. All marching bands and school bands know him, as well as teachers and even the owner of St John's Music in Calgary (dt) who plays in Gordon Chadney's band Tweed. His students won every Kiwanis Music Festival award there was as well.

I can easily prove to you my accomplishments in certificate and letter form; right now, I have photocopies of my awards for my Job applications if you want pictures of photocopies - otherwise, when I get home, I can easily take pictures of all my certificates to prove what I'm saying is true. Just ask for it and I can supply copies on the spot, or the origanals when I go home.

[Phanuthier]

Just wanted to point this out for you Lanny

http://www.ludwig-drums.com/content/produc.../march_bass.php
http://www.ludwig-drums.com/content/produc.../march_bass.php
http://www.kellyindustries.com/drums...ick_drums.html

Is the base drum still just the fat kid in band with the big mallet?

If you want to try calling bullsh*t on someone, you should probably get it right.