Huge Win For Obama In South Carolina Primary Saturday!

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by blankall

Constitutional to overturn Roe vs. Wade however? Since when does the US Supreme Court not have the constitutional rights to make these kind of decisions? it is the highest court in the country. This is just political pandering to wash his hands of what is clearly a political issue.

I'm not sure you understood what I was saying.

He thinks the abortion issue is a state issue. He believes Roe vs Wade was a case of the Supreme Court legislating, not interpreting as the constitution stipulates. Quite a bit of difference from what you originally said.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by OILFAN #81

Anyone else watching the State of the Union Address right now? I can't wait till November comes. The US desperately needs another leader. 31% approval rate is absolutely horrible. Bush preaches about all these things that we must do in the future yet in his two terms he didn't do much except drive the economy into the ground. I miss the days when Bill Clinton was the President.

I'm trying to watch it, but all this damn clapping is just annoying. Do they have to applaud everything? The guy farts and they clap.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by OILFAN #81

Anyone else watching the State of the Union Address right now? I can't wait till November comes. The US desperately needs another leader. 31% approval rate is absolutely horrible. Bush preaches about all these things that we must do in the future yet in his two terms he didn't do much except drive the economy into the ground. I miss the days when Bill Clinton was the President.

I'm listening to it right now too. It might be a good speech if it were delivered by someone with some credibility.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

I totally see your point. What you have to remember, however, is that the last (present) administration is so far right, that they've effectively redefined what constitutes a moderate position in the US. By Canadian standards, Hillary is right of center. By the new American Standard, she's to the left. Stick McCain in Canada, he's a hardcore Conservative. But in the States, and especially compared with what they've had in power for the last 8 years, he's effectively a moderate candidate.

The relevant way to look at McCain and where he sits is to compare him to the other Republican candidates. When you do that, only Rudy Giuliani is left of him. He's more moderate than Romney, Huckabee or the recently departed Thompson and Duncan.

But hey, what do I know?

[OILFAN #81]

Originally Posted by 4X4

I'm trying to watch it, but all this damn clapping is just annoying. Do they have to applaud everything? The guy farts and they clap.

Originally Posted by flylock shox

I'm listening to it right now too. It might be a good speech if it were delivered by someone with some credibility.

I agree on both counts!

They are clapping at every little thing and it's damn annoying! And yeah, worst approval rating in US history doesn't give me much faith in what he has to say.

[flylock shox]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

The relevant way to look at McCain and where he sits is to compare him to the other Republican candidates. When you do that, only Rudy Giuliani is left of him. He's more moderate than Romney, Huckabee or the recently departed Thompson and Duncan.

But hey, what do I know?

That works for me too. Basically, you're looking at the immediate context of his competitors, I'm looking at the recent historical context of those who went before. Either way, it seems we're in the same boat.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by OILFAN #81

I agree on both counts!

They are clapping at every little thing and it's damn annoying! And yeah, worst approval rating in US history doesn't give me much faith in what he has to say.

Not different than any other State of the Union speech.

Lame Duck president, I imagine it is a lame duck speech.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

That works for me too. Basically, you're looking at the immediate context of his competitors, I'm looking at the recent historical context of those who went before. Either way, it seems we're in the same boat.

Thanks,.


Blankall is evidently unable to see it from that perspective.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by peter12

Not to mention that they are beating the crap out of identity groups that are not an effective part of their nomination coalition. You have to think that Billary's comments regarding Blacks after this South Carolina primary are going to come bite them in the butt later.

You would have to 'hope' that it does.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Not different than any other State of the Union speech.

Lame Duck president, I imagine it is a lame duck speech.

Very much so. The entire time I was watching, the thought "this guy just doesn't get it" kept popping into my head. After 7 years of power, he was of the exact same opinion on virtually every issue. There was absolutely no growth in this president. Not that i expected much from a man who thinks coal power is the way to save the environment.

[driveway]

All you need to know about GW Bush:

This is George W. Bush's favourite painting:


He has a copy of the painting and he took the ostenable title, A Charge To Keep, as the title to his autobiography. Here is the true story of the painting

[Bush] came to believe that the picture depicted the circuit-riders who spread Methodism across the Alleghenies in the nineteenth century. In other words, the cowboy who looked like Bush was a missionary of his own denomination.
Only that is not the title, message, or meaning of the painting. The artist, W.H.D. Koerner, executed it to illustrate a Western short story entitled “The Slipper Tongue,” published in The Saturday Evening Post in 1916. The story is about a smooth-talking horse thief who is caught, and then escapes a lynch mob in the Sand Hills of Nebraska. The illustration depicts the thief fleeing his captors. In the magazine, the illustration bears the caption: “Had His Start Been Fifteen Minutes Longer He Would Not Have Been Caught.”



So Bush’s inspiring, proselytizing Methodist is in fact a horse thief fleeing from a lynch mob. It seems a fitting marker for the Bush presidency. Bush has consistently exhibited what psychologists call the “Tolstoy syndrome.” That is, he is completely convinced he knows what things are, so he shuts down all avenues of inquiry about them and disregards the information that is offered to him. This is the hallmark of a tragically bad executive. But in this case, it couldn’t be more precious. The president of the United States has identified closely with a man he sees as a mythic, heroic figure. In fact that man is a wily criminal one step out in front of justice. It perfectly reflects Bush the man . . . and Bush the president.

http://harpers.org/archive/2008/01/hbc-90002237

[flylock shox]

^^ In the words of Pee Wee Herman:

I love that story!

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by blankall

He also supports bans on gay marriage, he is anti gun control, he is anti universal health care, he has expressed that he would like to keep military action in iran on the table....

My favorite John McCain quote of all. When asked if non-Christians should be president:
"I just have to say in all candor that since this nation was founded primarily on Christian principles, personally, I prefer someone who has a grounding in my faith."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politic...cCain#_note-59

You totally miscontrue what he says and what he means. Perhaps that's his fault in not being clear. He's opposed to gay marriage and abortion legislation, because he believes strongly that its a state issue. If Texas is opposed and California is in favor, why should they not each have their way. Very logical. (Politically, he's also handing the fallout to someone else). He's also a soldier, he's seen hell incarnate in Vietnam, and he's not exactly willing to send more guys to a meatgrinder unless he has to. What he meant when he's said that is that they simply can't dismiss policy alternatives out of hand like some candidates have... either they're liars or fools (or both). As for his anti-universal healthcare policy, that's just very conservative ideology, that socialist healthcare doesn't work with 300+ million people... hell it barely treads water in a country of 33 million.

What you didn't mention is McCain has voted against party lines on Stem Cell research, and other "leftist" democrat led initiatives.

Funny you bring up the Christian leader mentality... its something that most CANADIANS and Americans quietly believe in. McCain was being honest... he'd prefer a leader with some religious moral background (they don't have to be rabid zealots either). So do many people. Don't believe me, name one Prime Minister or President that wasn't some Christian denomination. Hell, I don't think there's ever been a Presidential candidate or major Party leader that wasn't white and christian. You might find non-christians in lower levels of government, but North American society as a whole seems to be most content with the status quo... an anglo-saxon (or French in Canada) christian male. Even Obama is staunch Christian, United Church of Christ I believe, and very proud to admit it.

As for his moderate stance... he is. You're looking at it like a Canadian. This is not Canadian politics. For the US, McCain is a moderate right of centre candidate. Would he closer to Stockwell Day than Stephen Harper or Paul Martin. Yep. But this is a different country. He is a moderate American candidate that appeals most to non declared independents and moderates. (those people win elections).

[MacDougalbry]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

As for his moderate stance... he is. You're looking at it like a Canadian. This is not Canadian politics. For the US, McCain is a moderate right of centre candidate. Would he closer to Stockwell Day than Stephen Harper or Paul Martin. Yep. But this is a different country. He is a moderate American candidate that appeals most to non declared independents and moderates. (those people win elections).

Agreed. Different countries, different standards. Compared to Huckabee, McCain is a godless heathen. In Canada, Huckabee would be labelled an imbicile or a religeous psychopath:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-BFEhkIujA

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

He's opposed to gay marriage and abortion legislation, because he believes strongly that its a state issue. If Texas is opposed and California is in favor, why should they not each have their way.

Hell, I don't think there's ever been a Presidential candidate or major Party leader that wasn't white and christian.

As for his moderate stance... he is. You're looking at it like a Canadian. This is not Canadian politics. For the US, McCain is a moderate right of centre candidate. He is a moderate American candidate that appeals most to non declared independents and moderates. (those people win elections).

1. He expresses his opposition to gay marriage and abortion in terms of the Constitution and the powers of the States. This is a political trick he uses in order to sound more appealing to moderates. He voted against a federal constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage, but has supported it at the state level. http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...iatives26.html

2. As of yet, there has never been a federal official elected in the US who has been openly atheist. We remain hopeful that the day is coming.

3. McCain does everything he can to appear moderate, but he is not. He actually treads a bizarre kind of policy 'no-man's-land' where he is left of the conservatives, but right of most moderates. Personally, I don't believe that he can win the general election.

[flamey_mcflame]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

You totally miscontrue what he says and what he means. Perhaps that's his fault in not being clear. He's opposed to gay marriage and abortion legislation, because he believes strongly that its a state issue. If Texas is opposed and California is in favor, why should they not each have their way. Very logical. (Politically, he's also handing the fallout to someone else). He's also a soldier, he's seen hell incarnate in Vietnam, and he's not exactly willing to send more guys to a meatgrinder unless he has to. What he meant when he's said that is that they simply can't dismiss policy alternatives out of hand like some candidates have... either they're liars or fools (or both). As for his anti-universal healthcare policy, that's just very conservative ideology, that socialist healthcare doesn't work with 300+ million people... hell it barely treads water in a country of 33 million.

What you didn't mention is McCain has voted against party lines on Stem Cell research, and other "leftist" democrat led initiatives.

Funny you bring up the Christian leader mentality... its something that most CANADIANS and Americans quietly believe in. McCain was being honest... he'd prefer a leader with some religious moral background (they don't have to be rabid zealots either). So do many people. Don't believe me, name one Prime Minister or President that wasn't some Christian denomination. Hell, I don't think there's ever been a Presidential candidate or major Party leader that wasn't white and christian. You might find non-christians in lower levels of government, but North American society as a whole seems to be most content with the status quo... an anglo-saxon (or French in Canada) christian male. Even Obama is staunch Christian, United Church of Christ I believe, and very proud to admit it.

As for his moderate stance... he is. You're looking at it like a Canadian. This is not Canadian politics. For the US, McCain is a moderate right of centre candidate. Would he closer to Stockwell Day than Stephen Harper or Paul Martin. Yep. But this is a different country. He is a moderate American candidate that appeals most to non declared independents and moderates. (those people win elections).

Right, and if there was never a French speaking(quebecois) PM, you would have said that most North Americans are content with a leader that is white, Christian and of English background. You look for coincidences and patterns and then argue backwards. Secondly, using your logic, McCain should have appealed even more in 2000 when you had a democratic president in power and a very healthy economy. If you really understood american politics as much as you state, you'd realize the power of block voting by evangelical christians in the southern states. They all vote like mindless cheap adhering to the words of Ted Haggard("Mr I'm anti-homosexuality but I like to hire male escorts) and his ilk. The 80 million of them voting republic. Its not that most leaders are highly religious(with the exception of Bush), they just have to pretend to be(especially in the states) because religious people are dogmatic and close minded when it comes to the idea that their belief system is not the one and true way of looking at the world. Have you not seen the transformation of Barack, he went from sounding like a charismatic educated speaker to sounding like a minister preaching his sermon. As far as healthcare, if Canada is just barely treading above water with their health care spending(which I agree with). Why is it ranked better and cheaper per capita than the states. It doesn't matter what westernized country you look at, regardless of private or socialized, health care is drowning all those countries. An aging population with high labor costs and expensive treatment does that. The only way you can possibly fix health care is by not offering treatment to people over a certain age because they eat up a highly disproportionate amount of the health care dollars or you get into researching dna and gene medical research. All these new prescriptions and treatments to let us live to be 90 or a 100 is not cheap. Anyways, I'm digressing from the point. And the point is this, whenever I look at the US of A, I kiss the ground and say,"Thank you Canada for not being overrun by a bunch of ignorant, ethnocentric, warmongering, biblethumping sheep. Canada is much closer to Europe than the U.S., when it comes our way of life. Well, the ones north of the mason dixon line are like us. Those southerners are scary.

[Displaced Flames fan]

So flamey, you are saying that 25% of the American population are evangelical Southerners who always vote Republican?

It's amazing that anyone else ever gets elected!

That would translate to well over half of the American electorate! Those are some mighty big numbers. Never mind the fact that the Southern states don't come anywhere close to 50% of the US population.

Seems to me you are overestimating the power of evangelical Christians in this country. Heck, how did Huckabee lose South Carolina him being a baptist preacher and all?

Hmmmm....

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by blankall

McCain has been one of the strongest pro-life advocates in the world. McCain has a 0% NARAL rating, indicating one of the strongest pro-life records in the Senate.
http://www.ontheissues.org/John_McCain.htm

And for that you call him a raving lunatic?! Dude is trying to protect unborn life in this post modern relativist society and that makes him a lunatic?? I guess...

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

You totally miscontrue what he says and what he means. Perhaps that's his fault in not being clear. He's opposed to gay marriage and abortion legislation, because he believes strongly that its a state issue. If Texas is opposed and California is in favor, why should they not each have their way. Very logical. (Politically, he's also handing the fallout to someone else). He's also a soldier, he's seen hell incarnate in Vietnam, and he's not exactly willing to send more guys to a meatgrinder unless he has to. What he meant when he's said that is that they simply can't dismiss policy alternatives out of hand like some candidates have... either they're liars or fools (or both). As for his anti-universal healthcare policy, that's just very conservative ideology, that socialist healthcare doesn't work with 300+ million people... hell it barely treads water in a country of 33 million.

What you didn't mention is McCain has voted against party lines on Stem Cell research, and other "leftist" democrat led initiatives.

Funny you bring up the Christian leader mentality... its something that most CANADIANS and Americans quietly believe in. McCain was being honest... he'd prefer a leader with some religious moral background (they don't have to be rabid zealots either). So do many people. Don't believe me, name one Prime Minister or President that wasn't some Christian denomination. Hell, I don't think there's ever been a Presidential candidate or major Party leader that wasn't white and christian. You might find non-christians in lower levels of government, but North American society as a whole seems to be most content with the status quo... an anglo-saxon (or French in Canada) christian male. Even Obama is staunch Christian, United Church of Christ I believe, and very proud to admit it.

As for his moderate stance... he is. You're looking at it like a Canadian. This is not Canadian politics. For the US, McCain is a moderate right of centre candidate. Would he closer to Stockwell Day than Stephen Harper or Paul Martin. Yep. But this is a different country. He is a moderate American candidate that appeals most to non declared independents and moderates. (those people win elections).

I will give McCain credit for voting outside of party on stem cell and immigration, but I have to disagree with your perception of his abortion views.

"On June 26, 1984, McCain voted for H.AMDT.942, the Siljander amendment, to H.R.5490, "An amendment to define "person" as including unborn children from the moment of conception"

This amendment would not allow states to allow abortion in any way. Defining all unborn feotuses as persons would essentially make abortion of any kind equivalent to murder.

As for gay marriage, yes he has said each state should be given the right to decide, but he also supported an outright ban on gay marriage in Arizona. So despite the fact he believes it should be a state policy, he is still very much opposed to gay marriage.

"He's also a soldier, he's seen hell incarnate in Vietnam, and he's not exactly willing to send more guys to a meatgrinder unless he has to."

Well apparently there are a lot of situation where he believes he "has to" send in troops. He is constantly pressuring the government to send in more troops to Iraq. Publicly stated that Israel should not have used any restraint agaisnt Lebanon. He has also been extremely hawkish towards, Russia, Iran, and just about any other US problem. The man is a hawk pure and simple.

The only time his experience as a POW has shown through is his stance on torture. He has aggresively fought the use of torture by the US and deserves credit for that.

Yes you are right I am looking at it from a Canadian perspective. That still does not change the fact that although he is left of centre on a couple of issues (which may give him an overall rating of being centrist) he is extremely right wing on many issues. Considering there are so many posters who complain about polarization and the US military, this seems absurd to me that these same posters then support McCain.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

You have to think that Billary's comments regarding Blacks after this South Carolina primary are going to come bite them in the butt later.

I missed this. What was said?