Medicine Hat pedophile murders 12 year old girlfriend's family

[Dion]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

We'll probably end up paying for this little darlings education, and courses on how to fool the parole boards.

Then a true psychopath (IMO) walks away free, Homolka style.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Jagger

The purpose for serving time is that she planned and carried out a vicious, hateful crime. There's no going back. A 7 seven year old, her own brother, will never experience anything that life has to offer. He got much longer than a 25 year sentence and he is the VICTIM. Her parent's were snuffed out. They have no second chances. Honestly, why should she? And please don't think me heartless. I have three small children and am a very compassionate, caring person to those that deserve it. The murdering daughter is the heartless one and it truly bothers me that some people are already seemingly feeling sorry for her. What about the victims?

What about the victims? Seriously, what about them? They're gone. You, nor I, nor the justice system can bring them back and the only family left to grieve is the one who killed them. Do you think her parents would want her to spend her life in jail? One of your kids kills both of the other ones, do you want your last remaining child to rot in a cell for life? Or do you want them to have another chance? Or, how about a sibling of yours kills your parents and any other siblings you might have? You're going to turn your back on the last of your family or are you going to try and help them through? How long/short do you want their sentence so they can get on with their life?

yeah, it's sad. A 7 year old died for no reason other than a LITTLE GIRL'S selfishness. She's also a little girl you know. Why is no one concerned about the statutory rape that occurred? If 12 year olds have such a well developed sense of life, why can't they have sex? Drive? Vote? I mean heck, it's obvious 12 year olds know what they're doing as proven by this case, let's let them date 23 year olds on a regular basis. Isn't that what you're all saying? She knew exactly what she was doing, planned it out and everything, she should fry for her actions? 12 year olds have sex but the people who have sex with them are charged for it. If it's planned out and executed, why should the other participant be charged? Obviously a 12 year old knows what they're doing when they plan out such grown-up things. Let's let them have sex too. They're well aware and know what they're doing. They understand the consequences of their actions. Right?

[Jagger]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I'm sure I told my friends I wanted my parents dead when i was a kid too. Heck, I even planned out the perfect murder. Lock me up and throw away the key!

She's 13, FRY THE LITTLE BIOTCH!

Did you actually carry out the threats though?

I'm against the death penalty actually.

I'm sorry but you're simply not going to make me feel sorry for her because she's 13 and will have a hard life now. I feel sorry for the 7 year old in this affair and the parent's. That's it.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Jagger

The purpose for serving time is that she planned and carried out a vicious, hateful crime. There's no going back. A 7 seven year old, her own brother, will never experience anything that life has to offer. He got much longer than a 25 year sentence and he is the VICTIM. Her parent's were snuffed out. They have no second chances. Honestly, why should she? And please don't think me heartless. I have three small children and am a very compassionate, caring person to those that deserve it. The murdering daughter is the heartless one and it truly bothers me that some people are already seemingly feeling sorry for her. What about the victims?

And after that whole rant, you still didn't answer my question. The purpose of serving time is that she planned out a hateful crime? Ummmm, that's not the purpose of serving time. What can be gotten in 25 years that can't be gotten in 6 or 10? justice? Is that what you're looking for? Then we're back to "what is justice?".

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Jagger

Did you actually carry out the threats though?

I'm against the death penalty actually.

I'm sorry but you're simply not going to make me feel sorry for her because she's 13 and will have a hard life now. I feel sorry for the 7 year old in this affair and the parent's. That's it.

I'm not asking you to feel sorry for her. I don't even feel sorry for her. She's getting what she deserves. I just don't see what purpose a much longer sentence serves in this case.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I'm not asking you to feel sorry for her. I don't even feel sorry for her. She's getting what she deserves. I just don't see what purpose a much longer sentence serves in this case.

i'm with you - a much shorter sentence is what's deserved here... how long does the electric chair take to warm up?

[Jagger]

Originally Posted by FireFly

What about the victims? Seriously, what about them? They're gone.

Oh, so that's it then. Heck, let's just forget about them, move on, and worry about the convicted felon. How easily we toss aside the victims of crime in concern of rehabilitating the perportrator.

She's 13. I get it. She's not a adult. She stabbed her little brother. She told her friend the sounds he made as he died. I really don't seewhy I'm such a bad person for thinking she deserves a tough sentence.

Where I grew up two 10 years old kidnapped and brutally killed a 2 year old. "The Bulger case." Since then I have very little sympathy for young offenders.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

We'll probably end up paying for this little darlings education, and courses on how to fool the parole boards.

it's a lot cheeper then paying for 25 years of prison and may help prevent her from reoffending. That education just might help her choose a better life then being a repeat killer. Do you care about possible future victims of this girl? because giving yound criminals some other options certainly may help them.

[CrusaderPi]

I'm with Firefly. No matter the crime the guilt party should get a stern talking to and be allowed to move on with their life.


Forget justice. Forget Deterrence. Forget Punishment.

Pity the poor criminal, after all they only committed the crime, why should they have any consequences?

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Jagger

Where I grew up two 10 years old kidnapped and brutally killed a 2 year old. "The Bulger case." Since then I have very little sympathy for young offenders.

Perhaps you should look beyond one case. The vast majority of youth crimes are commited by kids from terrible homes/neighbourhoods who don't know better and are surrounded by the wrong influences.

a little sympahty, or better yet a little help could prevent a lot of yound offenders from commiting more, or more serious crimes.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

I'm with Firefly. No matter the crime the guilt party should get a stern talking to and be allowed to move on with their life.


Forget justice. Forget Deterrence. Forget Punishment.

Pity the poor criminal, after all they only committed the crime, why should they have any consequences?

Yeah, cause that's exactly what I said.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Jagger

Oh, so that's it then. Heck, let's just forget about them, move on, and worry about the convicted felon. How easily we toss aside the victims of crime in concern of rehabilitating the perportrator.

She's 13. I get it. She's not a adult. She stabbed her little brother. She told her friend the sounds he made as he died. I really don't seewhy I'm such a bad person for thinking she deserves a tough sentence.

Where I grew up two 10 years old kidnapped and brutally killed a 2 year old. "The Bulger case." Since then I have very little sympathy for young offenders.

Never said you were a bad person, nor did I say to forget about the victims. I said they're gone. Giving her 25 years won't bring them back. You don't even know that that's what they would want. Yeah, worry about the convicted felon because eventually, she'll be out. You'll be worried about her then, won't you?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by FireFly

What about the victims? Seriously, what about them? They're gone. You, nor I, nor the justice system can bring them back and the only family left to grieve is the one who killed them. Do you think her parents would want her to spend her life in jail? One of your kids kills both of the other ones, do you want your last remaining child to rot in a cell for life? Or do you want them to have another chance? Or, how about a sibling of yours kills your parents and any other siblings you might have? You're going to turn your back on the last of your family or are you going to try and help them through? How long/short do you want their sentence so they can get on with their life?

We'll never know what her parents last wishes were, they're dead. The father was stabbed 24 times after putting up a fight. The mother was stabbed multiple times. The little boy had his throat slashed, and while he was struggling for breath his sister finished him off. The justice system has to balance victim rights, with criminal punishment with an attempt at rehabilitation. At this point, your thinking is not right in my opinion. She planned and killed her family. You ask my parents, if I had killed them, they would want to see justice served, they would probably want to make sure that I was also in no postition to hurt myself or others. Its easy to say that you want her to get on with her life, but I keep going back to the planning, and the way that they executed thier family. This was not a act of passion. This was a drawn out act of rage, and it wasn't hot rage, this was slow and torturous. The brother was dying, and they continued to strike out at them. The father was grievously wounded while he fought for his life, and the stabbing continued. The mother, same thing. This wasn't a quick death. It was long and drawn out, and at the very worst she stood by and watched it, and then participated. At the very best she stood by and watched and participated.

I don't by that this was a mistake. It went past a mistake when they moved from taking thier time over days and weeks of planning this and executing this. If she was a normal human being she would have stopped it. Her parents weren't drug dealers, they weren't beating her or sexually assualting her. They were trying to protect her from a creepy pedophile, and they paid the price for that protection.

I know one person who killed someone, and he wished that he could take it back, but it happened during a fight, it just happened, and he wishes everyday that he didn't throw that punch. But he didn't plan it, he didn't stab the person as he laid there dying, or ask his buddies to cover up for him. He accepted what he did and he turned himself in and served a bunch of years. Those are the people that you try to rehabiliate.

With this girl the jailtime needs to be the stick, and the faint hope clause needs to be the carrot. You thow the book at her, and if she admits what she did was wrong and terrible, and if she shows actual remorse where she's not throwing the blame around, then you shorten her sentence. You don't remove the victims from the equation and go light on her because she's a young girl.

The girls that helped Charles Manson weren't that much older then her, and they're still in jail.

Originally Posted by FireFly

yeah, it's sad. A 7 year old died for no reason other than a LITTLE GIRL'S selfishness. She's also a little girl you know. Why is no one concerned about the statutory rape that occurred? If 12 year olds have such a well developed sense of life, why can't they have sex? Drive? Vote? I mean heck, it's obvious 12 year olds know what they're doing as proven by this case, let's let them date 23 year olds on a regular basis. Isn't that what you're all saying? She knew exactly what she was doing, planned it out and everything, she should fry for her actions? 12 year olds have sex but the people who have sex with them are charged for it. If it's planned out and executed, why should the other participant be charged? Obviously a 12 year old knows what they're doing when they plan out such grown-up things. Let's let them have sex too. They're well aware and know what they're doing. They understand the consequences of their actions. Right?

Sure I'm concerned about her statutory rape, her parents certainly were, but after the killings she went off to have sex with him again. So she certainly was't traumatized by it. She made the choice to date a 23 year old, she got pissed off when her parents tried to put the stop to it, then she planned out the killings, planned out the alibi, watched the violent deaths of her parents, watched her brother as he struggled to survive and then plunged the knife into him again. Obviously she thought that the rules shouldn't apply to her, and god help whoever got in her way.

One of the markers of a sociopath is that they're extremely self centered. She passed that one with flying colors, and thats why I'm not convinced that this was some horrible mistake on her part.

A mistake is punching a man so hard that you kill him in a bar fight. A mistake is killing a man who breaks into your house. A mistake is killing a man who's trying to rob you or rape your girlfriend.

You even said it before, you thought about killing your parents and planned it, but you didn't execute those plans. She did, with very little regrets for some time after the act. Again she accepted a marriage proposal from this creep, and kept in contact with him in prison. the only reason why she stopped is her Lawyer told her it would look bad to a jury.

The judge failed society here, the parents suffered before they died, the brother suffered before he was finished off. I have no sympathy for her whatsoever. But 6 years in and 4 years out is hardly the atonement needed for an intentional act.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Never said you were a bad person, nor did I say to forget about the victims. I said they're gone. Giving her 25 years won't bring them back. You don't even know that that's what they would want. Yeah, worry about the convicted felon because eventually, she'll be out. You'll be worried about her then, won't you?

i'd like to see her serve 25 years+. with her sentence, she's out when she's 19 if she serves the full sentence... she'll probably be out before she's 18 and won't even see the inside of a real prison. this is not nearly harsh enough. she needs to ride the lightning.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

it's a lot cheeper then paying for 25 years of prison and may help prevent her from reoffending. That education just might help her choose a better life then being a repeat killer. Do you care about possible future victims of this girl? because giving yound criminals some other options certainly may help them.

the cost at this point is completely irrelevant. Educate her in prison, but make her earn her freedom. Thats why I'm for an approprate sentence with a parole system.

But the sentence that she received was a joke. The justice system failed her today, failed society and failed the victims.

It failed her because if put a cheap price on her crime. It failed society because there's no deterance to her crime, she got a slap on the wrist. It failed the victims a family that tried to protect her was exterminated like rats because they got between her and her boyfriend.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Never said you were a bad person, nor did I say to forget about the victims. I said they're gone. Giving her 25 years won't bring them back. You don't even know that that's what they would want. Yeah, worry about the convicted felon because eventually, she'll be out. You'll be worried about her then, won't you?

The reality is most people won't. They want "justice" so they can sleep at night. The end result doesn't matter at all.
By the time that girl has spent 25 years costing public money, to become a hardoned criminal with no skills or hope and commits more crimes because it's the only thing she knows, people will have long forgotten about her and the victims.
then when she kills again, they can say the same lines again; "what about the victims!", "give her the chair!"

[Jagger]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Perhaps you should look beyond one case. The vast majority of youth crimes are commited by kids from terrible homes/neighbourhoods who don't know better and are surrounded by the wrong influences.

a little sympahty, or better yet a little help could prevent a lot of yound offenders from commiting more, or more serious crimes.

Well thanks for that. I believe I'm intelligent enough to see past one case, thanks, but Im simply not going to feel sympathic for violent criminals, regardless of age and background.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

the cost at this point is completely irrelevant.

um.. you brought it up

[Jagger]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

The reality is most people won't. They want "justice" so they can sleep at night. The end result doesn't matter at all.
By the time that girl has spent 25 years costing public money, to become a hardoned criminal with no skills or hope and commits more crimes because it's the only thing she knows, people will have long forgotten about her and the victims.
then when she kills again, they can say the same lines again; "what about the victims!", "give her the chair!"

So what do you think is justice then? If she is released at 18 or 19, completely rehabilitated, but goes out and commits another crime, what then? Back inside for more rehabilitation, education, and skill learning?

What exactly is so wrong with having concern for the victims? That is such "a line" too. Wow.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The judge failed society here, the parents suffered before they died, the brother suffered before he was finished off. I have no sympathy for her whatsoever. But 6 years in and 4 years out is hardly the atonement needed for an intentional act.

So again I ask, what's justice in this case? Think about how much you grew and changed from the time you were 13 until you were 19. I was a selfish person at 13 as well. Not so much at 19. It's not that I think 6 years is a lot. I don't. I just realize that the years she will spend in prison are some of the most developmental a person can go through. Life is a never ending learning cycle granted, but think of all the things you learned about life between 13 and 19.

Again, I'll go back to the sex. Let's not even look at her case here for a second. A 12 year old can plan and have intentional sex. Possibly even get pregnant. They sneak about and make plans to cover their tracks with their friends, plan alibis and such so they don't get caught doing that. Do you really think they are fully aware of the life altering consequences of such an act? Is that little girl a ho for life because she planned and had intentional sex at the age of 12? If she does get pregnant, do you think she realized beforehand just what that meant for her? yet in such a case, we don't really punish the 12 year old, we punish the person they have sex with. Why is that? Because they don't understand the consequences of their actions. Because they aren't mentally prepared for what they're about to go through in life, regardless even of whether or not they get pregnant.

Could the sentence have been longer? Sure. Let's even say 12 years would be good. She'd then be 25 and would probably at that point in time have a decent grip on reality. But 25 years? What stages of development would her still growing mind go through during that period of time? Denial, acceptance, regret, remorse, sadness, depression, anger, hate, vengence....

To me it's not all about what's appropriate for her crime, it's also about what's appropriate for her mental development. How long is long enough to punish without making her worse than before? How long is enough to teach her a lesson without filling her with anger and hatred?

Again, the years between 13 and 19 are quite formative and the system has a chance to change her. Anything more than enough time to rehabilitate might just make things worse in the end.