Calgary - Edmonton Corridor High Speed Rail Gets A Boost

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Poor points. This will be, at least partially, privately funded. What do you care how much the land costs or where it is? It's not your money and it's not your land... or if it is your land, you don't have to sell it. Something tells me it'll run parallel to the QE2 though, just a guess. After all, the government already owns that land. It's the land in the city they're more concerned with, the land for the stations is already purchased, at least in Calgary and Edmonton. Stations are in downtown Calgary, Edmonton, and somewhere in Red Deer... not in every little town in Alberta. That defeats the purpose of the whole thing, in addition to not bringing any money to the areas that it goes to, so would have no benefit to politicians for trying to put track there.

Yeah, cause the half hour to the train station... you may as well just tack on another 3 hours driving time so you have a car at hand. Makes perfect sense.

Airplanes might be faster... until you figure in the time to get to the airports and pass through security, etc. Cheaper? For who? The airline? The consumer? Says who? With a train you can fit more people on them, and they cost less to operate. Seems to me it'd be cheaper for the train. More convenient? Again, for who? The people who live in NE Calgary or near the airport in Edmonton? What about people who are afraid of flying, etc? Less noisy? How loud do you think this train will be? It would sound much closer to the C-Train than the CP Rail train... not to mention.. have you heard an airplane? More fuel efficient? Jet fuel? Are you serious? Planes also pollute more.

Seems to me that some here are afraid of change.

I live in Osaka (Japan) and the distance to Tokyo is roughly the same as the distance from Edmonton to Calgary. There is roughly 60-80 million people between that area.

Please google the tracks. The cost for a Nozomi (Super express. Three stops. 1.2 hours) rail ticket is as much or more than a plane ticket from Osaka to Tokyo.

It struggles due to competition from airlines.

60-80 million people!!!!!

As for semi-private....the semi-public part IS MY MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I am willing to change my estimate....but I know this. Osaka population is alone is 3 million more than Alberta. Tolyo city alone is 5 or more times larger and the greater Tokyo area is 30 million people.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

Why? Bombardier has developed the perfect technology for what Alberta would need, the Jet Train. It uses a jet turbine engine to generate electricity, elminating the need for overhead catenary wires like the C-Train. It travels at up to 240km/h, and is specifically designed to function on regular (freight) trackage, rather than specialized high speed rail which is maintenance intensive and as others have noted, probably not suitable for our climate.

-Scott

Well they better have done something worthwhile with our money.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

Why? Bombardier has developed the perfect technology for what Alberta would need, the Jet Train. It uses a jet turbine engine to generate electricity, elminating the need for overhead catenary wires like the C-Train. It travels at up to 240km/h, and is specifically designed to function on regular (freight) trackage, rather than specialized high speed rail which is maintenance intensive and as others have noted, probably not suitable for our climate.

-Scott

With their past dealings with Amtrak and the new trains they developed for them. This link sums it up pretty good: http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/03/18/rail_ed3__0.php

I'd imagine it would be similar to the BC Ferry fiasco if we decided to go with them.

[Red]

Originally Posted by FireFly

And if I live way in the South, it takes me an hour to get to the airport, vs a half hour downtown. More convenient for some, less for others. Such is the way of the world as it is. Ever try to get to the airport via transit? That's a nightmare. But it sure is fairly easy to get downtown via transit... in both cities.



$30? That's wicked! My friend and I are going to Edmonton in her 2004 Honda Civic and it'll take just over a tank of gas... which cost her $54 dollars to fill yesterday. WTH are you driving that it only takes $30?



It doesn't make sense to you. I live downtown, it would take me 10 minutes to get to the train station via transit. If I go to the airport, it takes over an hour due to the poor transit scheduling to the airport. Not to mention the headache of going through airport security. So while it may be more convenient for you, there are 1 million people in this city... I'm sure some of them would prefer the train. Like those who currently take the 3+ hour bus ride to Edmonton. Or those would drive it, but would rather not, and would also rather not take the bus. Or any number of people.

Edmonton is 300 Kms so a Honda Civic will burn about 20 litres of gas each way. That's just over $20 each way.

If you live in the south you can take the outside to get to Hwy 2. You don't have to go thru downtown.

I would like to see how many people take the bus to edmonton. Something tells me that each run would be a huge loss for the train.

Look, you like the idea and that's great, but you can't deny the fact that this project would be losing tons of cash each year. We just don't have enough reasons to leave the car in the garage and take the train. We are just two small-ish cities in a land of cheap cars.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Poor points. This will be, at least partially, privately funded. What do you care how much the land costs or where it is? It's not your money and it's not your land... or if it is your land, you don't have to sell it. Something tells me it'll run parallel to the QE2 though, just a guess. After all, the government already owns that land. It's the land in the city they're more concerned with, the land for the stations is already purchased, at least in Calgary and Edmonton. Stations are in downtown Calgary, Edmonton, and somewhere in Red Deer... not in every little town in Alberta. That defeats the purpose of the whole thing, in addition to not bringing any money to the areas that it goes to, so would have no benefit to politicians for trying to put track there.

Yeah, cause the half hour to the train station... you may as well just tack on another 3 hours driving time so you have a car at hand. Makes perfect sense.

Airplanes might be faster... until you figure in the time to get to the airports and pass through security, etc. Cheaper? For who? The airline? The consumer? Says who? With a train you can fit more people on them, and they cost less to operate. Seems to me it'd be cheaper for the train. More convenient? Again, for who? The people who live in NE Calgary or near the airport in Edmonton? What about people who are afraid of flying, etc? Less noisy? How loud do you think this train will be? It would sound much closer to the C-Train than the CP Rail train... not to mention.. have you heard an airplane? More fuel efficient? Jet fuel? Are you serious? Planes also pollute more.

Seems to me that some here are afraid of change.

Seems to me that someone doesn't understand the change.

Unless this is completely privately funded we are paying for it. So we should all care how much it costs. There are very few, if any models in the world where this idea works. If the province has people and trade 3x times what we have maybe it works, but at the sheer cost (BTW go ahead and triple any cost estimate that is out there, this project in many ways will have to compete with OS, and upgrader development) and the fact that Calgary is about decade behind in terms of infrastructure development makes this a brutal idea.

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by I-Hate-Hulse

Very true. Too bad that white out conditions like that only account for what, 15 days a year max? Still not enough to fund a train for a whole year.

Are there travellers who don't mind not having cars with them? Absolutely. Are there enough of them to use the train frequently enough to turn a profit? I doubt it.

Conversly could you ever put a toll that would allow the QE2 to turn a profit? The point of a train is to reduce the pressure off the QE2 so that a large upgrade could be avoided.

[southener]

I former lived in Lethbridge but am marooned in Edmonton due to family commitments. Given my druthers I'd rather live back in Lethbridge which I consider saner than Edmonton or Calgary. Down there I can usually walk to where I wan't to go.

Anyhow back to the topic, I'd like to make a few points

1. There will have to be an injection of private money to make this thing go. Public money will be needed to buy right of way and construct grade seperations. A private company/group would have to finance track, equipment and stations. Probably many of these grade seperations can be simpler and cheaper than the $75 million ones often constructed by the province.

2. It is true that a bullet type train is impractical due to the high costs and close tolerances of the track. France has a much more moderate climate than ours. More practically, a train capable of an average speed of 100 mi/hr makes more sense. Can this be done on the present railway rights of way with minimal cost for improved rail and grade seperation. Improved grade seperation would not be necessary if Alberta drivers were a bit more sane. A very high speed train 200+ mph is very much in the future but the less deluxe version might be doable much sooner.

3. It is true that public transit is an abortion both in Calgary and Edmonton, so are the roads. The rapid growth in both cities has made this a chronic problem which will take a long time to solve. If a train served downtown to downtown, use of a dedicated LRT train to pick up and drop off train only customers at LRT stops would alleviate traffic jam problems for passengers assuming that adequate parking was available at these stops. I do think many contributers have pointed out that public transportation is not integrated. Consider the poor guy from Nanton who wants to travel to London, England. Bus to Greyhound terminal, another bus or taxi to the Airport.

4. Seattle and Portland are bigger cities than Edmonton and Calgary nevertheless there are five trains a day between them funded by the states of Washington and Oregon. These trains are not very fast yet are apparently well patronized. There are large stretches of 3 lanes on interstate 5 between these two cities. There are even two trains a day between Seattle and Eugene. Eugene is a very small city of ~250000 (Calgary circa 1960). I think the example of Seattle Portland indicates that there is a case for Edmonton Calgary rail service.

5. All modes of tranportation need subsidies of some sort. The 10 miles of road improvements through the kicking horse pass will cost ~$750 million, I doubt that this can be recovered by road users. I made lots of money on PWA shares back in the 70's but wouldn't touch airline shares today. On average airline investors have lost money(i.e subsidized the air passengers).

6. In my younger years I could travel long distances by car without too much difficulty ex Edmonton to Portland in slightly over a day. I now find that I get tired over much shorter distances, I'm sure that there are many baby boomers in the same boat. I would just as soon take a train to Calgary than drive there. I find the traffic jams in both cities as well as the greater frequency of nuts on wheels makes the journey more tiring and dangerous. I suggest give us old farts (baby boomers) an option so that we can get off the highway and be less of a hazard to the younger drivers.

7. My elderly father is going to the Paris open next week, he will fly to London, take the Eurostar to Paris and then the metro to his hotel and the French open (no use of a car), maybe some day we will have well integrated public transportation in Edmonton and Calgary as they do in Europe.

8. In my university days I did enjoy my walks about Calgary when travelling by train from Lethbridge to Edmonton. Maybe more people can learn to enjoy the pleasures of walking over short distances.

[CrusaderPi]

Originally Posted by southener

4. Seattle and Portland are bigger cities than Edmonton and Calgary nevertheless there are five trains a day between them funded by the states of Washington and Oregon. These trains are not very fast yet are apparently well patronized. There are large stretches of 3 lanes on interstate 5 between these two cities. There are even two trains a day between Seattle and Eugene. Eugene is a very small city of ~250000 (Calgary circa 1960). I think the example of Seattle Portland indicates that there is a case for Edmonton Calgary rail service.

Good point. I'd agree with someone saying a passenger rail connection between Edmonton and Calgary would have a market. The question is whether spending 9 or 10 figures for that market makes economic sense. Doesn't seem like the cost to build would be justified.

Even though going between Edmonton and Calgary in an hour would be damn cool.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by FireFly

That's a heck of a lot of assumptions there! Any reason we can't have two lines and have multiple trains going each way at all times? Any particular reason the train stops for half an hour at each stop? Heck, the bus only stops for 15 minutes in Red Deer. 10 Minutes is likely MORE than enough. People who will be travelling heavily likely won't take the train, this is for your daily commuter, so you don't need a lot of time to get on/off.

Not only that, but even if there was only one track, there would be areas that trains can pull out... so at each station, there will be multiple tracks. Meaning that you could have a train at each station, and two in Red Deer at any given time.As one is unloading, the next is already loading.

Either way, your assumptions are ridiculous. No transit planner would be that dumb. There would be at least two lines.

Take a trip around the Crowchild/Bow/Memorial/12st interchange, or visit South Edmonton Common and tell me no transit planner would be that dumb.

You are right, I am making some assumptions, but so are you. Doubling the number of lines significantly incrases the cost, if not outright doubling it. An 800 lb white elephant is harder to keep going than a 400 lb white elephant.

[Phanuthier]

Late thoughts...

I like the idea and it would be convinient, but the problem is Calgary/Edmonton's population density don't support public transit and dispite the fact that you save time, it would be more convinient to have a car when you get off the train. Trains work in Europe, becuase they have a very good transit system to support the infrustracture. Calgary/Edmonton are driving cities.

Calgary's LRT is alot better then Edmonton's, but Edmonton has a better bus system. But compared to Europe, both cities public transit system are slow, inefficient and overall crap. Catching the bus home from high school in Calgary was harder and a longer wait (1.5 hours) then the wait to go from city to city in Italy.

Read about how Dongtan is being designed so public transit will be more efficiently used. It gives some good insight in the architecture design that comes with public transit (or trains) usage.

[Teh_Bandwagoner]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

Conversly could you ever put a toll that would allow the QE2 to turn a profit? The point of a train is to reduce the pressure off the QE2 so that a large upgrade could be avoided.

If you're looking for a good rough estimate, to add a lane to each side of QE2 would cost roughtly $1 mil/km including right-of-way in todays dollars. New diamond interchange construction in a rural area generally costs around $25 mil a pop.

QE2 is ultimately planned to be an 8-lane freeway. However that probably won't happen within our life-time. 6-lane may not be too far off though. 30-40 years maybe?

[ZDogg]

Figured I would dig this old thread as the report leaked today concluded...
A High Speed Rail between Calgary and Edmonton is economically feasible.

http://www.canadaeast.com/news/article/46850

also viewable on the global tv site but you need to pick the right video called "high speed go"

http://www.canada.com/globaltv/calgary/index.html

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by ZDogg

Figured I would dig this old thread as the report leaked today concluded...
A High Speed Rail between Calgary and Edmonton is economically feasible.

I still don't see how it could be. I can't wait to see this report.

I had a lot typed out as well, then lost it ... spent an hour researching too. I give up.

Here is an official press release btw.
http://www.jaceanderson.com/picture_..._speedrail.pdf
edit: Not happy to see Bombardier already sticking their face into it and influencing decisions.

edit #2: An excellent read as well, which basically hits on the points I was writing earlier. https://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin...ffelephant.pdf

According to this article, the 2004 report from Van Horne and the recent press release both show the cost to build the line would be roughly the same. I ask how, in this super inflated costs of large projects these days that the cost could have stayed the same from 2004 to today.

[Flames in 07]