Federal Budget 2007

[eazyduzzit]

sorry x2.

[eazyduzzit]

sorry...internet was lagging.

[eazyduzzit]

Originally Posted by Firefly

Thanks for generalizing. There are places you can rent vehicles from that do not charge by the mile or kilometre. Maybe check one of those places out. In addition, even if you do decide to rent by milage, do you drive out of the country every time you camp, or are you more likely to camp more often in an area close by? For a person who goes camping every weekend, absolutely, buy your SUV, buy your camper. Go nuts even. But for your imaginary family (I did read that part, you must've missed when I said "Not you"), you wanted them to have "a bit extra", as you put it. A bit extra is not owning a camper as well as the suv to tow it every weekend. A bit extra would be camping once or twice a year. Go buy a tent. A bit extra is not an extra $50/week in gas and $100/month in car payments. That's a lot extra.

Ok I just did this real quick. Jump on my arse for all the technical stuff but here and this is.

- without GST
- without all other hidden fees
- without CDC (which for some people can run $400+ weekly
- without a flippin v8 all they had was a v6 tblazer...sorry that doesn't haul very much.




I couldn't link you so I did a screenshot sorry it's big, i don't have that much energy to spend on you.

So you go camping 4 times a year...and thats on the low end.

based on this estimate here, which isn't even final nor it it even a v8 engine but your looking at easily about $1,600-1,800 once the v8's in there and all final costs and GSTs are total.

Lets say 1,750 x 4 = $7000 for 1 year.

7000k x 5(yrs) = $35,000.

Your going to spend 35k in rental vehicles over a 5 year period? and we're talking on the low end here....thats without a long weekend here...a weekend there. Not to mention you don't have the independance of being able to get up and go.. if you have to worrie about making sure theres a truck waiting for you...paper work etc.

Your bloody barmy if you choose that rout over shelling out 40k one time.

Anyways...just an estimate but still bang on my point. Some people go for less times, some go for more. 2 weeks 4 times seems like a bit but i've done that with my boat about 4 times a year twice in the last 3..unpaid leave of course..i don't get 8 weeks holidays. Even if you take 10k off that and go for less time, it's still 25k for 5 years... which is a hell of a lot of money to spend on renting vehicles. People buy these things for long time payoff...it will pay off in the long run. Sort of like timeshares.

[Dion]

The whole green tax on gas guzzling SUV's makes no sense to me. If the Feds want people to drive more fuel efficent vehicles why not provide some incentives to the manufactuers to make more fuel efficent engines. The tax does nothing in this matter except penalise us drivers of SUV's.

I drive a mid sized SUV (Ford Escape) and would love to see a more fuel efficent engine. Yes one could buy a hybrid but they're so darned expensive. These type of vehicles are out of the price range of most families.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

Lets say 1,750 x 4 = $7000 for 1 year.

Where do you work that you get 8 weeks of holidays in a year????

[eazyduzzit]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Where do you work that you get 8 weeks of holidays in a year????

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

..unpaid leave of course..i don't get 8 weeks holidays.

Originally Posted by Dion

The whole green tax on gas guzzling SUV's makes no sense to me. If the Feds want people to drive more fuel efficent vehicles why not provide some incentives to the manufactuers to make more fuel efficent engines. The tax does nothing in this matter except penalise us drivers of SUV's.

I drive a mid sized SUV (Ford Escape) and would love to see a more fuel efficent engine. Yes one could buy a hybrid but they're so darned expensive. These type of vehicles are out of the price range of most families.

This was exacly my argument a few pages ago.

We need more tax breaks for those who choose smaller vehicles, tax the vehicle less etc. Make those energy efficient cars cheaper and as you said, reward the car makers for providing them for lesser costs. Making me or anyone else pay 4k is doing nothing. No good putting levys on bigger engines...it's just a money grab than anything else...just like the Liberal plan for the oil sands. Won't solve anything other than hording the cash.

After all, whats 4k on a 40k monthly car payment. It's not going to deter at all...it's just grabbing money.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

This was exacly my argument a few pages ago.

We need more tax breaks for those who choose smaller vehicles, tax the vehicle less etc. Make those energy efficient cars cheaper and as you said, reward the car makers for providing them for lesser costs. Making me or anyone else pay 4k is doing nothing. No good putting levys on bigger engines...it's just a money grab than anything else...just like the Liberal plan for the oil sands. Won't solve anything other than hording the cash.

After all, whats 4k on a 40k monthly car payment. It's not going to deter at all...it's just grabbing money.

My thoughts exactly. And it won't do anything to reduce the gas guzzling vehicles on the road.

[Bobblehead]

So you say...

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

Bottom line is, you shouldn't be punished for striving for a little extra fun, nor should you be looked at as a person with handfuls of money simply because you own an SUV/trailer, nor should you be faced with extra fines and levys for doing so.

So you are calling it "a little extra fun" but a couple of your posts later, you say...

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

I'm in favor or extra taxes for those who drive big engine vehicles out of luxory instead of need. Maybe implement a system where you have to prove you need the bigger engine or something.

My argument is those who are driving them out of need, and not for a fun time, are getting thre raw end of the stick.

So by your own terms you are in favour?


Then you pull out an example of a family that would "need" a Grand Cherokee to have a "little extra fun" on camping trips during their 8 weeks of vacation? I'm not realy feeling sorry for them.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

Your examples always make me laugh

I payed GST on my SUV, i payed GST on my trailer (if i had one) and i payed GST on my boat (althought i bought it in Florida)

I payed GST on the gas it took to get to the destination, and i too payed GST on all booze in between.

I just substituted an airplane for a camper.

You skipped the part on the fees for an airplane ticket. My point was those fees could be considered equivalent to a levy on a vehicle that guzzles gas as it hauls a camper up a mountain.

You are giving special status to boats and campers. They don't deserve special status. They are luxury items. If you need a hemi to tow your camper, you don't actually need a hemi, you want one. I think people should pony up a few bucks for the right to drive one. If the levy is too much, buy a smaller truck and camper. That's how it works with everything else in the world.

[eazyduzzit]

Continued for FireFly.

I made this a little more realistic based on what an avarage family might do and not what i've done over the last couple of years with my boat.

Seems i can't even get a vehicle from Alamo before 8am....sure puts a wrench in those plans for hitting the road early for the long weekend. Seems like it's closed at 11pm as well, sort of screws up that last day of the long weekend if you have to abort all your plans to travel home early.

To cover my arse, i've calculated 1 2 week vacation and 3 long weekends and 3 random weekends...which seems about avarage to me.

I got $411 at Alamo w/ Jeep Grand Cherokee (not the limited edition..meaning it's again a V6 which will not haul substantial weight)

$411(3 days/long weekend) x 3 = $1233 (without GST and hidden fees, as i didn't put in my card information.)

So lets say $1400 for 3 long weekends w/ CDW.

Now Alamo again, July 6th to 20th (friday-friday). Same car only it calculated all costs this time (???)

= $2295

2295+1400=$3695

3 random weekends (saturday-sunday) pickup/drop off times still depending on when place decides to open.

$361 x 3 = $1083

3695+1083=$4778

So $4778 estimated. The vehicle is only a v6, so it looks like this camping trip is going to be done without a trailer. Unless they have a limited edition, this Cherokee will not haul an avarage size trailer.

So your easily looking at:

$5,000 on rentals alone once the upgrade is done, if they even have an upgrade beyond the SUV listed. No food...no gas...nothing else.

Seems that all inclusive to Mexico seemed like the better bet? What about that 7k Hawaii vacation for 4? Add gas and food expenses onto this total and you have that vacation right there.

5,000 x 5 = 25k....came out to what I estimated in the previous post.

25k on rentals ALONE, in a 5 year period is ridiculous.

Clearly your plan is not very feisable.

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

You skipped the part on the fees for an airplane ticket. My point was those fees could be considered equivalent to a levy on a vehicle that guzzles gas as it hauls a camper up a mountain.

I skipped that for a reason, but since you insist:

A 4,000 money grab can't be compared to the what...$60 they tack on your plane ticket.

GO ahead, tack on $100 to the price of my vehicle. If you want to compare the two, you would have to be getting charged 1K+ on your little plane ticket there

Bottom line is, We need more tax breaks for those who choose smaller vehicles, tax the vehicle less etc. Make those energy efficient cars cheaper, reward the car makers for providing them for lesser costs. Making me or anyone else pay 4k is doing nothing. No good putting levys on bigger engines...it's just a money grab than anything else...just like the Liberal plan for the oil sands. Won't solve anything other than hording the cash.

After all, whats 4k on a 40k monthly car payment. It's not going to deter at all...it's just grabbing money.

[kevman]

What's next...taxing SUV owners yearly??? Afterall they should probably look at getting ALL SUV's off the road new or used.

Gas is a user tax that is really quite simple, the more you use, the more you pay! High consumers pay more taxes than low consumers. I stayed away from saying SUV users pay more because that's not really fair. I drive my "SUV" about 10,000km's a year, compared to a suburban commuter Civic that drives 30,000km's a year I'm using much less gas so perhaps we should tax high mileage vehicles instead? What about the fact that most of my "SUV" trips are "high occupancy" (trips camping, biking, etc.) Based on a full load of 4 people that's 2,500km's worth of gas each compared to the single comutter that put's 30,000km's by themselves...shouldn't single commuters be taxed more than? My point is where do you draw the line???

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

I skipped that for a reason, but since you insist:

A 4,000 money grab can't be compared to the what...$60 they tack on your plane ticket.

GO ahead, tack on $100 to the price of my vehicle. If you want to compare the two, you would have to be getting charged 1K+ on your little plane ticket there

Bottom line is, We need more tax breaks for those who choose smaller vehicles, tax the vehicle less etc. Make those energy efficient cars cheaper, reward the car makers for providing them for lesser costs. Making me or anyone else pay 4k is doing nothing. No good putting levys on bigger engines...it's just a money grab than anything else...just like the Liberal plan for the oil sands. Won't solve anything other than hording the cash.

After all, whats 4k on a 40k monthly car payment. It's not going to deter at all...it's just grabbing money.

Last time I checked, very few flights cost 50 grand, so its all relative. Nor is my vacation going to be needlessly polluting the air and clogging up roads for the next 15 years. The levies and taxes on these two things should not be similar.

[Red]

People didn't have 400HP SUVs back in the days when I was a kid and they were still able to haul trailers and boats.

Since when do we need a Yukon to haul a holiday trailer? Or why do we need 30 ft trailers? It's called camping, not hauling your house everywhere you go. Start downsizing and go back to basics.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Red

People didn't have 400HP SUVs back in the days when I was a kid and they were still able to haul trailers and boats.

Since when do we need a Yukon to haul a holiday trailer? Or why do we need 30 ft trailers? It's called camping, not hauling your house everywhere you go. Start downsizing and go back to basics.

I do believe that's what I said when I told him to buy a tent.... Apparently he didn't listen. *shrugs* I think he just wanted a break from work.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Red

People didn't have 400HP SUVs back in the days when I was a kid and they were still able to haul trailers and boats.

Since when do we need a Yukon to haul a holiday trailer? Or why do we need 30 ft trailers? It's called camping, not hauling your house everywhere you go. Start downsizing and go back to basics.

True. Lets not forget that back then we were using less fuel effiicent carburated engines. Instead of SUV's the station wagon with the V8 engine was the primary choice followed by the full sized sedan.

[Dion]

Here's a breakdown of the fuel levys:

Vehicles that consume 13 L/100 kms or more will be subject to the levy at the following rates:

- 13 to 14 L/100 kms = $1,000
- 14 to 15 L/100 kms = $2,000
- 15 to 16 L/100 kms = $3,000
- 16+ L/100 kms = $4,000

A total of 84 vehicles will have a levy applied.

It will be paid by the manufacturer directly to the federal government and will likely be passed on to the dealer and ultimately the consumer.

[Hakan]

Originally Posted by Dion

The whole green tax on gas guzzling SUV's makes no sense to me. If the Feds want people to drive more fuel efficent vehicles why not provide some incentives to the manufactuers to make more fuel efficent engines. The tax does nothing in this matter except penalise us drivers of SUV's.

I drive a mid sized SUV (Ford Escape) and would love to see a more fuel efficent engine. Yes one could buy a hybrid but they're so darned expensive. These type of vehicles are out of the price range of most families.

Larf.

Price signals are the most basic and arguably the most efficient way to change behavior.

What you propose, subsidies, are possibly the worst way to go about reducing SUVs on the road.

Face it, you will have to pay for your preferences or you will simply change them instead of auto manufacturers trying to change demand functions.

It will be paid by the manufacturer directly to the federal government and will likely be passed on to the dealer and ultimately the consumer.

Gee whiz, y'think? That's that whole point, that those taxes are passed on to the consumer. They're the ones buying the SUVs. It's more efficient from an implementation and administrative perspective to levy the tax on manufacturers. The government is doing so with every intention that 100% of that tax is passed down to the consumer through increased cost functions and reduced supply.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Dion

Here's a breakdown of the fuel levys:

Vehicles that consume 13 L/100 kms or more will be subject to the levy at the following rates:

- 13 to 14 L/100 kms = $1,000
- 14 to 15 L/100 kms = $2,000
- 15 to 16 L/100 kms = $3,000
- 16+ L/100 kms = $4,000

A total of 84 vehicles will have a levy applied.

It will be paid by the manufacturer directly to the federal government and will likely be passed on to the dealer and ultimately the consumer.

Do you know where a list of vehicles affected can be found?

[kevman]

Originally Posted by Red

People didn't have 400HP SUVs back in the days when I was a kid and they were still able to haul trailers and boats.

Since when do we need a Yukon to haul a holiday trailer? Or why do we need 30 ft trailers? It's called camping, not hauling your house everywhere you go. Start downsizing and go back to basics.

People don't NEED a Yukon to haul a trailer just like they don't NEED the trailer, or NEED alot of things we have in life. I have a better idea...let's impose a consumer tax for "luxury" items. Everything that falls under the need's category will be tax free while everything that is considered a want will be taxed. Food and cooking supplies will be exempt while cars and gas will be taxed. Shetler and utilities will be exempt while TV's and entertainment will be taxed. Clothing will be exempt but than we run into another problem...I don't NEED a GoreTex coat but I sure like mine...likewise nobody NEEDS diesel jeans yet clothing is a basic need isn't it? Define downsizing??? What is "back to the basics"? Are you willing to give up your TV in the name of going back to the basics? Cause I'd give up my TV LONG before I'd give up my "SUV"

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by kevman

People don't NEED a Yukon to haul a trailer just like they don't NEED the trailer, or NEED alot of things we have in life. I have a better idea...let's impose a consumer tax for "luxury" items. Everything that falls under the need's category will be tax free while everything that is considered a want will be taxed. Food and cooking supplies will be exempt while cars and gas will be taxed. Shetler and utilities will be exempt while TV's and entertainment will be taxed. Clothing will be exempt but than we run into another problem...I don't NEED a GoreTex coat but I sure like mine...likewise nobody NEEDS diesel jeans yet clothing is a basic need isn't it? Define downsizing??? What is "back to the basics"? Are you willing to give up your TV in the name of going back to the basics? Cause I'd give up my TV LONG before I'd give up my "SUV"

Here's a better idea why don't we just walk around naked and dig for vegetables in the ground? Let's not get carried away here. What Red was saying is that SUV's today are needless excessive. They are beyond most peoples needs. Do you really need 400 horsepower monster with nine seats and 36" tires to tow a trailer? Not really. Most SUV owners don't own a trailer, a boat, or go off-roading. Most of them drive to work by themselves. Anyone who spends forty thousand dollars isn't going to put that thing under much stress.