Net loser and winners in Confederation

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

That is what these regions need - enterprising people looking to take advantage of the situation in a positive way.

I'm always surprised when someone says this kind of thing. Do you honestly believe that "these regions" don't have enterprising people looking to take advantage of the situation, and "this region" (Alberta) does?

Alberta has it's fair share of enterprising and hardworking people, but it's not like the border is some sort of magic barrier. If we didn't have all that oil in the ground we'd be getting these so-called handouts as well. We aren't special.

[Resolute 14]

Ok, more accurately, they need more enterprising people.

And I could care less about the "we are so lucky to have oil in the ground!!!!" argument. Saskatchewan does too, and has failed to develop it. Fact is, we do have it, and we have developed it, and the rest of the country can suck it up.

Take advantage of what you have. Don't whine about what others have.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Ok, more accurately, they need more enterprising people.
Take advantage of what you have. Don't whine about what others have.

How many enterprising people do the Maritimes have then?

[CrusaderPi]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

How many enterprising people do the Maritimes have then?

Exactly 6. But John is sick right now. And Joe hurt his back last fall.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

Exactly 6. But John is sick right now. And Joe hurt his back last fall.

I thought that they had all moved to the west ?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

How many enterprising people do the Maritimes have then?

Not enough to sustain the province, it seems.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Sparks

We're like a guy who won the lottery, complaining about having to give a portion away to his (not well-off) family members. "Oh, to be them!" "Oh, they're lazy." "But, it's my money!"

Wrong.

The crap that Alberta is only well off because of the oil is such a load of garbage that it is a worse stereotype than lazy Maritimers. At least when people call Martimers lazy people will point out that it is false. however, when ever people claim that Alberta wealth is due solely to having oil all that happens is that idiots pat each other on the back and agree.

The reason that Alberta is in the finacial and econmic place they are is because they were able to take advantage of that oil, make smart decisions to improve and encourage the development of the energy industry in the province, made tough decisions with the money they made during this boom and finally use thi time to diversify the econmy and make the province a desireable place for all corporations that when the oil is finished here Alberta will still have a strong economy much to the disappointment to other provinces and all the "Alberta is nothing without oil."

The oil and gas certainly has helped Alberta get to where we are today but to disregard all the factors that contributed to taking advantage of this oil is stupid and irresponsible.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Ok, more accurately, they need more enterprising people.

And I could care less about the "we are so lucky to have oil in the ground!!!!" argument. Saskatchewan does too, and has failed to develop it.

I think you will find that the Saskatchewan oil is owned by the same people who own the B.C. oil and are the major stakeholders in the Albertian industry. What gets developed and when is up to them.

[Flames in 07]

The problem agaisnt SK and BC is that they are dependant on AB infrastructure ... for the most part anyway to take thier product to market.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by moon

The crap that Alberta is only well off because of the oil is such a load of garbage ...

The reason that Alberta is in the finacial and econmic place they are is because they were able to take advantage of that oil,

That's quite a distinction.

You realize of course that the oil had to be there in the first place for us to take advantage of it.

Why this is even a point of contention with some people? You actually seem offended by the suggestion. It's not an insult. I've lived here all my life and benefited just like everyone else. My old man is in the oil business and if the oil wasn't there, he wouldn't have moved here in the first place.

Sure, Alberta worked hard, sacrificed did this, developed that, but the fact of the matter is that if the oil and gas wasn't there, most of us woudn't be either, and neither would all that money. Hard work, intution and smart ideas wouldn't have helped if it was just rocks under the ground.

[moon]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

That's quite a distinction.

You realize of course that the oil had to be there in the first place for us to take advantage of it.

Why this is even a point of contention with some people? You actually seem offended by the suggestion. It's not an insult. I've lived here all my life and benefited just like everyone else. My old man is in the oil business and if the oil wasn't there, he wouldn't have moved here in the first place.

Sure, Alberta worked hard, sacrificed did this, developed that, but the fact of the matter is that if the oil and gas wasn't there, most of us woudn't be either, and neither would all that money. Hard work, intution and smart ideas wouldn't have helped if it was just rocks under the ground.

Alberta could have just sat back collected its money and done nothing to think about the future, encourage more development/expansion in the industry and basically just focsued on the short term goals.

Sure the oil had to be there for those things to happen but Alberta could have had all that oil and not been as well off as they are now the oil only got them so far. They have done alot more to take advantage of their situation and make it better.

I am not sure why you think it is so trivial that rather than take the oil for granted, Alberta has looked at ways they can use this "advatage" if you want to call it to become even stronger.

[Hakan]

Sure the oil had to be there for those things to happen but Alberta could have had all that oil and not been as well off as they are now the oil only got them so far. They have done alot more to take advantage of their situation and make it better.

I am not sure why you think it is so trivial that rather than take the oil for granted, Alberta has looked at ways they can use this "advatage" if you want to call it to become even stronger.

How has Alberta become even stronger through policy mechanisms? To me, the reason Alberta became stronger was rising Oil and Gas prices. Just like the price dip in the 80s necessitated a recession in the provice. Tell me, where exactly is Alberta an economic leader in industries not directly associated with oil and gas?

From the look of things, Alberta has squandered alot of the rents from the Oil under the ground with anachronistic royalty schemes under Klein and a severe lack of investment of Oil funds into anything other than Ralph bucks and tax cuts.

To me, the Alberta advantage, from a policy perspective is woefully overblown or just a flat out falsity.

Look at Norway for instance, they aren't spending any of their oil money. They're banking ALL of it for when the Oil is gone. Other countries have long term development goals that they are using Oil money with. What exactly is Alberta's vision? I'll tell you what, it's mired in a 4 year election cycle. Get ready, in 2 years you'll see some Ed-bucks coming your way.

[RedHot25]

Yeah, what exactly is Alta's long term vision? I see us busy busy trying to keep up with all this oil, growth, etc....It makes you wonder if people are even thinking about a couple of months from now, let alone years and years (yes I am exagerrating a bit, but the point stands).

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by moon

Alberta could have just sat back collected its money and done nothing to think about the future, encourage more development/expansion in the industry and basically just focsued on the short term goals.

Sure the oil had to be there for those things to happen but Alberta could have had all that oil and not been as well off as they are now the oil only got them so far. They have done alot more to take advantage of their situation and make it better.

I am not sure why you think it is so trivial that rather than take the oil for granted, Alberta has looked at ways they can use this "advatage" if you want to call it to become even stronger.

From an economic standpoint things have gone well and it didn't just happen out of the blue, I'll agree with that.

But I'm not going to fall for all the back-patting and rah-rahing and "we are great-ing". The way I see it, it would have been stupid to do anything else but take advantage of it, and puffing up my chest for not doing something stupid seems kind of pointless.

It's like bragging that you didn't shoot yourself in the foot.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Hakan

How has Alberta become even stronger through policy mechanisms? To me, the reason Alberta became stronger was rising Oil and Gas prices. Just like the price dip in the 80s necessitated a recession in the provice. Tell me, where exactly is Alberta an economic leader in industries not directly associated with oil and gas?

From the look of things, Alberta has squandered alot of the rents from the Oil under the ground with anachronistic royalty schemes under Klein and a severe lack of investment of Oil funds into anything other than Ralph bucks and tax cuts.

To me, the Alberta advantage, from a policy perspective is woefully overblown or just a flat out falsity.

Look at Norway for instance, they aren't spending any of their oil money. They're banking ALL of it for when the Oil is gone. Other countries have long term development goals that they are using Oil money with. What exactly is Alberta's vision? I'll tell you what, it's mired in a 4 year election cycle. Get ready, in 2 years you'll see some Ed-bucks coming your way.

Alberta's economy has become much more diversified since hte increase in oil prices. They have attracted businesses and coprporations to the province because of the tax incentives that they have been able to offer.

If Norway is the model that we should be looking at than we are in big trouble. The day this province moves to more like Norway I will be not only embarrassed but scared.

I feel fine with what has be done with the oil revenues and with the economic future of the province.

[moon]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

From an economic standpoint things have gone well and it didn't just happen out of the blue, I'll agree with that.

But I'm not going to fall for all the back-patting and rah-rahing and "we are great-ing". The way I see it, it would have been stupid to do anything else but take advantage of it, and puffing up my chest for not doing something stupid seems kind of pointless.

It's like bragging that you didn't shoot yourself in the foot.

I think more has been done than you give them credit for.

I am not trying to puff out Alberta's chest, I just think that more credit is deserved than many give credit for.

If people want to believe that it is only due to the fact that oil is here it makes no difference to me. They are welcome to do so. I think they will be dissapointed when Alberta's economy does not fall apart in their lifetimes.

[Resolute 14]

Ok, to tie this into the argument about the Maritimes: What is Nova Scotia's long term plan? What about Newfoundland? New Brunswick?

Suppose Alberta fails to plan for the future without oil and tanks. Where does that leave the rest of this country that is just as dependant on our oil, and the revenue it gives them?

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

From an economic standpoint things have gone well and it didn't just happen out of the blue, I'll agree with that.

But I'm not going to fall for all the back-patting and rah-rahing and "we are great-ing". The way I see it, it would have been stupid to do anything else but take advantage of it, and puffing up my chest for not doing something stupid seems kind of pointless.

It's like bragging that you didn't shoot yourself in the foot.

It's not like you wake up one morning and decide you'll be an economic powerhouse as it relates to E&P, logistics and marketing.

Many jurisdictions, inlcuding a few in Canada have managed to shoot themselves in the foot when it comes to lease sales, royalty regiemes, public JV's with industry, logistics anlaysis asset deployment etc. People in AB derseve alot of credit for positioning themselves into the spot they are in today.

[Hakan]

Dear Snakeeye,

Please have some semblance of what equalization is before you start trashing it.

Do you want to know what percentage of Alberta's oil revenues it gives to the rest of the country? Because clearly you have no idea.

Alberta gives 0 percent of its oil revenues to the rest of the country.

[Resolute 14]

Try following the logic, Hakan. If Alberta's economy is based on oil, and the reserves are depleted, or the world moves to an oil free society, what do you suppose would happen to a province dependent on it? And if Alberta's economy tanks, take a wild guess as to what would happen to our employment rates, overall wealth, and therefore taxation levels. Then guess what happens if Ottawa is faced with far fewer tax dollars coming from Alberta when it comes time to hand out equalization payments? Either Ontario eats all of the difference, or the entire nation makes due with less.

Guess what happens when the billions in royalties and taxes the feds get directly (and indirectly) from the O&G industry disapear? If you seriously do not believe that not a single penny of the revenue generated by the Oil Patch leaves Alberta, then you are suffering from some major delusions. Fact is, the federal government makes more money off of the Oil Sands than Alberta does.