Total Cost Lebanon Evacuation - 31mil.

[Red Mile Style]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

It costs like $80 bucks....you have to pay that for a passport, so why not to process your citizenship docs?

Hell I had to pay $65 for a god damn birth certificate last week and all they did was push the fricken print button.

I was talking about the $1000 fee immigrants need to pay. There are a lot of low-income families that could probably not afford it. So, you can only be a Canadian if you belong to a certain income bracket... hmmmmmm...

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

they wouldn't become a refugee, as you have to be a PR before you can apply for citizenship. So...I am not sure what your talking about with regards to refugees???

I was talking about a mandatory fee to become a citizen for everyone - if a child never recieved their citizenship because of the costs, leaves the country - voila refugee!

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

are people really crying over the 31 million dollars it took to evacuate canadian citizens from a war-torn area? 31 million?

A billion dollar gun registry, but a potential human life is worth less than 2100 dollars?

Maybe canada should be sending the bill to Israel.

It will end up closer to $100 mil.

And the Bill Should be split between Nassrallah, Assad and Ahmadinejad.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Shazam

So why don't the Muslim countries just go in and take over Israel?

that's... one of the stranger questions i've been asked, but i'll try to answer.

1) the rhetoric does not indicate the will

iran's leadership is way more psychotic than its people, who previous to two american takeovers of neighbouring countries for oil interests actually elected a reformer president that made serious noise aboot recognizing israel, khatami.

2) self interest of the leadership of arab countries

israel is a great scapegoat, not least because almost all the arab accusations that are dismissed by westerners often contain a grain of truth.

if you're a dictator you need a bogeyman.

3) fear of other arab countries

in 1948 while syria invaded israel, jordan invaded syria. there's a great cartoon i can't find right now that is a picture of the arab league, being 20 guys running in a circle with a dagger out. this is not far from the truth when you look at some of these ancient tribal feuds among the leaders.

4) backdoor relationships

turkey and iran are muslim but not arab countries. overtly and covertly iran, israel, and turkey have not directly clashed, they all have interests in coordinating against 'the arabs', they all have interests in preventing any pan-arab unity.

iran and israel's backdoor relationship right now is doubtless strained, but i'm sure it exists, there's just too many common interests.

israel and saudi arabia are commonly thought to have a HUGE backdoor relationship.

5) jordan

jordan and israel have many common interests and their cold peace is nonetheless very strong.

jordan's arab legion was the only one to give the IDF a black eye in 1967 and without its support no war against israel could possibly be successful.

6) israel is a tough nut to crack

the only (limited) success arab armies have had against israel came because of two things: the goal of limited success to bring to the bargaining table, and the unity of the attack.

UAR - united arab republic, syria and egypt. two captains, one ship (didn't really last...). yom kippur, 1973.

conclusion
this 'hell bent all the muslims are coming to kill israel because they are jews' is such a sick corruption of the facts, spare me.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

All I am saying is there is a need to charge these people to process their request. Not to mention, how many do you think get denied? Probably a lot.

Never once did I say we should shut down the embassies. I am saying we NEED to charge these people, it should have stayed at $975. But the conservative wanted to by some immigrant votes.

Now I'm no expert on immigration, but 975 bucks seems like a hell of a processing fee. Ticketmaster must be jealous.

We need immigration into this country. If it costs a few bucks to facilitate it then I'm not complaining.

[Looger]

Bleeding Red, your responses are awesome, i've got to go actually work, i'll get back to you.

[Red Mile Style]

Originally Posted by Shazam

So why don't the Muslim countries just go in and take over Israel?

2 words:

The U.S.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Looger

that's... one of the stranger questions i've been asked, but i'll try to answer.

(snip)

Well, I was hoping you'd mention that they've tried before and failed miserably.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Now I'm no expert on immigration, but 975 bucks seems like a hell of a processing fee. Ticketmaster must be jealous.

We need immigration into this country. If it costs a few bucks to facilitate it then I'm not complaining.

You are right - it is a lot of money and does not help to encourage immigration.

The question comes when after that immigrant gets citizenship, then decides to go back home for 10,15,25 years then expects full Canadian benefits without any of the burdens.

For the most part immigrants want to come here and live here and be productive citizens and help shape the country. And we should try to facilitate this.

It's the ex-pats that leave for an extended period of time expecting to get all the benefits and become Prime Minister that I have a problem with.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Looger

Bleeding Red, your responses are awesome, i've got to go actually work, i'll get back to you.

Thanks, I am on my way home from work and will be offline until the game.

Cheers

Still no one with today's secret seats eh?

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Well, I was hoping you'd mention that they've tried before and failed miserably.

i could have done that but then i'd have to be an idiot.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Looger

i could have done that but then i'd have to be an idiot.

So they haven't tried before and failed miserably?

[Ayrahb]

[quote=jolinar of malkshor;612296]

Well woop iteee dooo. $500 bucks to become a PR. Do you know how much it costs to administer this program? Paying all the people that work in all the Embassies around the world? It is call cost recovery. Why should I pay for someone else to obtain there PR status?

According to my superficial interpretation of the Treasury Board data, the immigration program operating cost estimate for 05-06 was 170.9 million and the planned program revenue was 296.4 million.

Interestingly enough, it was the Conservative government that cut the landing fee by 50%.

Granted, the net cost of operating the immigration department is quite high, but Immigration Program and Temporary Resident Program make more than they cost and Citizenship Program would too if not for an "adjustment" to planned spending amount.

The embassies are the responsibility of the DFAIT not the CIC as far as I can tell. Again, according to my limited ability to interpret the Treasury Board data, it would seem that DFAIT decided to pay over $35 million for a Beijing compound purchase and spend $92.6 million on a Berlin chancery construction.

Why should you pay for someone else to obtain their PR status?
[rant]YOU ARE RIGHT (no sarcasm, seriously)! Why did I have to pay $8,000 in Canadian income tax on my Perkins Loan and scholarships while studying in the US? Why should I pay for peacekeeping missions that embarass this country (see Somalia: Royal Canadian Airborne; Bosnia: Gen. Lewis McKenzie) Why should I pay for career students to get money from the government that they will hardly pay off in income tax?
[/rant]

[Looger]

NOTE: for all people that honestly believe that every muslim and every arab woke up one day and started hating all jews for no reason,

TURN OFF YOUR TELEVISION.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Shazam

So they haven't tried before and failed miserably?

who's THEY?

muslims?

are you honestly serious?

where was the contingent from india / pakistan's 300 million muslims?

indonesia's 200 million muslims?

turkey?

iran?

israel was / is the central focus of arab nationalistic anger because of europian colonialism in their VERY recent memory.

a bunch of rich white europeans moved next door at exactly the wrong time, there was a lot of anger.

point of fact it's arab nationalists that initially led the anti-israel charge, religious leaders weren't really in the game until it became profitable to do so, ie. wahabbist and western support for islamic fundamentalism.

what, you actually believe that this religious extremism came out of nowhere?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

It's the ex-pats that leave for an extended period of time expecting to get all the benefits and become Prime Minister that I have a problem with.

Is this actually a problem though? I've never heard of it being one before this.

These people were rescued from a war-zone, they weren't given a fancy vacation on the country's dime. How often does it happen? Should we really change our immigration rules to make sure we save fewer people next time?

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Looger

who's THEY? (snip)

I'll be very specific: Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Transjordan and Lebanon.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Maybe the inquries that may (or may not) happen can root some of these guys out. There will be change at the top on the military (good or bad, it's yet to be seen) and alot of the 'old gaurd' needs to move on (Peres, Shalom, Bibi) and some of the new gaurd need to be leashed (Leiberman, belin). Eventually the "gangsters" will be outnumbered and less powerful.

if leiberman's quotes ended up in our media instead of more half-quotes from ahmadenajad this whole problem would be over tomorrow.

he was made the deputy pm, i hardly think he's 'moving on'...

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

I think the events in Gaza at the time sparked this one.

i'm sure that the lebanese civilians that were wholesale slaughtered because of a non-event might not see it that way. they might be looking more favourably at hezbollah, who defended them from the marauding israeli tanks.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

No doubt it was a ****ing contest between Halutz and Nasrallah.

it usually is... sadly you don't have to look far to find extremists.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

I don't see it, but I am not well read on the neo-con thing.

many of the neo-cons are dual citizens and outspoken zionists. what's more alarming to me is the political ties a lot of these guys have to russian mafia and the KGB, it could easily be argued that many of america's recent homeland policies are STRAIGHT OUT of the KGB's playbook.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

COuld there be peace if the Lebanese gov made concrete efforts to remove the militants out of their midst?

of course there could. but israeli fighter planes occasionally drop bombs here and there, israeli troops make incursions all the time, and lebanon's government is almost a non-entity due to foreign (syrian) beligerence, which these days exists more as latent political support and less as troops / order. all of these factors equal a lame-duck government and all of these factors equal a domestic resistance to citizens being killed by invading armies.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

I see you point, I guess not because at the first (maybe second) sign of trouble Israel would jump in with supirior air power, claiming that Lebanon can't do it so it is up to Israel defend itself.

israel defending itself does not have to be blowing up bridges in northern lebanon. israel defending itself is not fighter pilots refusing to bomb purely residential targets nowhere near the border.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

But could this not end up a bit of a catch-22 - what would Lebanon use newofund airpower for? hizzbollah has parlimentary seats, the Lebanese gov could easily vote to use force on Israel rather then the militants in it's midst.

at this stage any lebanese 'air power' would be put to less than constructive use.

however some AIR DEFENSE would take away the IAF's ability to wantonly massacre civilians. it's a start.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

I think the key is the world helping the Lebanese gov get a handle on their army and the militants rather than bringing their arms up to par with Israel's.

it's fixing the symptom.

you cannot have homegrown resistance movements without outside aggression.

remove the aggression and the people will not rally behind the only groups defending their homes.

people aren't born hating israel. they are taught to by their corrupt and foreign-owned leaders, and when they are bombed and strafed by high-tech weaponry it's an easy sell.

[jolinar of malkshor]

They pay this fee before they arrive in Canada. If they cannot pay an administration fee to cover their costs associated to processing their application....maybe we don't want them here. How are they going to pay for anything else once they get here?

How would they be a refugee?????

They cannot get to Canada unless they have been approved to become a Permanent Resident. Being a Permanent Resident does not mean you are a refugee. What are you talking about?

[jolinar of malkshor]

[quote=Ayrahb;612655]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

According to my superficial interpretation of the Treasury Board data, the immigration program operating cost estimate for 05-06 was 170.9 million and the planned program revenue was 296.4 million.

Interestingly enough, it was the Conservative government that cut the landing fee by 50%.

Granted, the net cost of operating the immigration department is quite high, but Immigration Program and Temporary Resident Program make more than they cost and Citizenship Program would too if not for an "adjustment" to planned spending amount.

The embassies are the responsibility of the DFAIT not the CIC as far as I can tell. Again, according to my limited ability to interpret the Treasury Board data, it would seem that DFAIT decided to pay over $35 million for a Beijing compound purchase and spend $92.6 million on a Berlin chancery construction.

Why should you pay for someone else to obtain their PR status?
[rant]YOU ARE RIGHT (no sarcasm, seriously)! Why did I have to pay $8,000 in Canadian income tax on my Perkins Loan and scholarships while studying in the US? Why should I pay for peacekeeping missions that embarass this country (see Somalia: Royal Canadian Airborne; Bosnia: Gen. Lewis McKenzie) Why should I pay for career students to get money from the government that they will hardly pay off in income tax?
[/rant]

You want to show me where you obtained these numbers? From what I can find the total cost for CIC is over a billion.

Just so you know that cost recovery is collected by more than PR applications. Such as: VISA applications, TRP applications work permit applications, rehabilitation applications.

[Ayrahb]

[quote=jolinar of malkshor;614004]

Originally Posted by Ayrahb

You want to show me where you obtained these numbers? From what I can find the total cost for CIC is over a billion.

Just so you know that cost recovery is collected by more than PR applications. Such as: VISA applications, TRP applications work permit applications, rehabilitation applications.

Yes, the CIC costs over a billion. Hence my "Granted, the net cost of operating the immigration department is quite high, but Immigration Program and Temporary Resident Program make more than they cost and Citizenship Program would too if not for an "adjustment" to planned spending amount." comment.

I guess the onus is on me as the person who quoted numbers to provide links to those numbers. Just for the record, the Treasury board website is http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca

I got the numbers from http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/est-pre/200...-CIr5604_e.asp

As I said before, I consider my ability to interpret such information to be limited as I am not a finance/economics professional. I was looking at Annex 4 vs. Annex 7 because, with those two, you can compare Immigration Program operating costs and revenues head to head. Note that the TRP, Refugee Program, and Citizenship Program costs and revenues are listed separately.

For those of you who look at the report, also note that the CIC is paying $116.8 million for the Toronto Waterfront Revitalization Initiative. Now, that is probably where I don't want my tax dollars and/or immigration fees to go.