The Fight Against Scientology

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Hesla

Mormon's are expected to give up to 10% of their income to the church... now this is not required.... but you are pretty much pushed out of the church if you dont....

10% =/= "nearly every penny", which was my point entirely.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by evman150

The lower parts of society need religion to live their lives.

Those in the upper echelon of society are (necessarily) the most intelligent, the most successful, the happiest, the most free to live their lives. These people do not need religion to give their lives meaning like the dregs of society do.

I really have nothing against those individuals who believe in God if it gives their lives some sort of (false) meaning. Just don't try and tell me these people are of the same worthiness to society as the rest of us.

Actually, studies have shown that more intelligent people tend to be less happy, so your statement is somewhat contradictory, even if you overlook the gross generalization.

Every man needs faith. You may replace faith in a god with faith in anything else, but there is always something that drives man forward.

[skins]

Originally Posted by evman150

I really have nothing against those individuals who believe in God if it gives their lives some sort of (false) meaning. Just don't try and tell me these people are of the same worthiness to society as the rest of us.

what incredible prejudice. how can you say that you have nothing against people who believe in God, and then in the VERY next sentence say that they are worth less to society? I think society would be better off if bigots like you kept your mouth shut.

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Actually, studies have shown that more intelligent people tend to be less happy, so your statement is somewhat contradictory, even if you overlook the gross generalization.

Studies have also shown that people with more money (or as I'm sure evman would say, people who are more "successful") generally tend to be less happy; they just want more money. People in lower income brackets tend to live happier lives.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Every man needs faith.

No, we don't. I don't. You don't.

What the world needs now is reason.

[skins]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Every man needs faith.

I agree with Troutman about this, not everyone needs faith to have a fulfilling life.

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

but there is always something that drives man forward.

I do somewhat agree with this. everyone should have something that motivates them.

[evman150]

Where's that quote about belief in God, happiness and drunkenness...

[Resolute 14]

Faith does not automatically have to be religious. Cheese, for example, has faith in mankind.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Faith does not automatically have to be religious. Cheese, for example, has faith in mankind.

But isn't faith in real, living, breathing people different than faith in a bearded figure sitting in heaven surrounded by angels plucking harps? Those are the same kinds of faith?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

But isn't faith in real, living, breathing people different than faith in a bearded figure sitting in heaven surrounded by angels plucking harps? Those are the same kinds of faith?

Faith is a matter of belief. What you believe in does not change its validity or importance.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Laugh. You've got to be kidding me. You actually believe you are part of some intellectual ruling class? Aren't you a student? You must be, because only an undergrad would come up with, and claim membership in, anything as pretentious and silly as an "intellectual bourgeoisie".

Anyhow, what constitutes "success" to you? Lots of money? Political power?

So a student can't be among the intellectual elite? Show me a free thinking 13 year old and I'll tell you he's one of us. Show me a free thinking 80 year old with an IQ of 89 and I'll tell you he's one of us as well. Those who believe what I believe are pretty much the inverse of the graph above, that is, the highest percentage of people who believe what I believe have the higher IQs, but that is not to say that there are not people with lower IQs who believe as well, just as I'm sure there are many people out there with astronomical IQs who are theists.

A successful person is a person who is good and just, not because he was told to be, or threatened to be, but because he is. This is totally independant of wealth, happiness, whatever. It just so happens that these "successful" people tend to be the most successful (common definition) people.

Originally Posted by fotze

hehe, thinking back to the thinking of stopping school thread, evman you got ta get out of school, SOON.

Being open minded isn't just believing in gay rights or universal health care, it is having a belief and then challenging the **** out of that belief, daily, to either reinforce it or change it. And if you never change it, chances are you aren't open minded.

I am not religious but to simply dismiss it as a lack of intelligence, lacks intelligence.

I am not dismissing it as lack of intelligence, just pointing out a correlation which exists. I'm not saying all theists are stupid. I have a professor this semester who is a renowned astrophysicist who just happens to be Muslim. His IQ is off the charts, and he believes. There are excpetions to every rule, and there are most definitely a lot of exceptions to every correlation.

To tell you the truth, I question my own open-mindedness. Who even says open-mindedness is a virtue? I really don't know for sure. I'm still blazing my trail in life, these answers will come, maybe on my travels.

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Actually, studies have shown that more intelligent people tend to be less happy, so your statement is somewhat contradictory, even if you overlook the gross generalization.

Every man needs faith. You may replace faith in a god with faith in anything else, but there is always something that drives man forward.

Found the quote:

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact a drunken man is happier than a sober one."

- GB Shaw

[Resolute 14]

I've give you credit Evman, you are confident.

Seems that your faith is in yourself.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Faith is a matter of belief. What you believe in does not change its validity or importance.

Ok... but what about the 'truth' of the belief. Believing in human-kind is believing in a tangible and obvious truth. Believing in God and angels isn't the same kind of belief... right? Is Cheese taking a leap of faith by believing that humans can be rational beings?? The same leap of faith that one takes to believe in God in Heaven?

The importance of your faith to you is one thing, but the accuracy of its actual existence (God, Angels, the Devil, as real beings) is a separate matter.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by evman150

I'm not saying it's black/white. But if you were to plot a graph of IQ vs % of believers....I'm going to do this now...

Very rough...and obviously not accurate to any reasonable degree, but it does give the general idea...

But don't confuse cause and causation. Are the majority of poor people religous because of elements of poverty, or is poverty the result of religion?

My personal theory is that when people are very poor or poverty stricken, they search for faith more than someone who has health and wealth. Of course, that is a huge generalization... but I believe to be the general case in most societies.

I don't feel that it is a matter of being educated or not, although most very poor people are uneducated.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Ok... but what about the 'truth' of the belief. Believing in human-kind is believing in a tangible and obvious truth. Believing in God and angels isn't the same kind of belief... right? Is Cheese taking a leap of faith by believing that humans can be rational beings?? The same leap of faith that one takes to believe in God in Heaven?

Are you suggesting that belief in a god is irrational? Also, are you suggesting that belief in a god is belief in a lie?

I would also suggest that Cheese's belief than man is inherently good is just as irrational, and he himself has unwittingly argued against the truthfulness of it.

Truth is often a matter of degrees. I have never questioned Cheese's faith, nor have I ever questioned a religious person's faith. I can, and do, question motives, however, and the use of improper absolutes.

The importance of your faith to you is one thing, but the accuracy of its existence is a separate matter.

As is true of nearly anything related to this discussion.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

But don't confuse cause and causation. Are the majority of poor people religous because of elements of poverty, or is poverty the result of religion?

My personal theory is that when people are very poor or poverty stricken, they search for faith more than someone who has health and wealth. Of course, that is a huge generalization... but I believe to be the general case in most societies.

I don't feel that it is a matter of being educated or not, although most very poor people are uneducated.

IQ is independant of education. I say nothing of being educated.

And I agree with your second paragraph. Poverty leads to a bad life which leads to theism (a need for some sort of meaning, false happiness). Again, a generalization.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by daveyboy

Buddhism by definition is a non-theistic religion/philopshy/way of life.

From the Buddhist prespective, talking about whether or not there is a god/s does nothing to eliminate Dukka and atain Nibana.

If theism is the belief that there are god/s who exist and play an active role in the universe then Buddhism is most definitely non-theistic.

There are 'supernatural' elements in Buddhism (especially Tibetan Buddhism) but those would be better classed as Shamanism/Anamism and they relate more from the Bon religion of the past.

Thank you!

Although, just a random thought... but isn't the term "supernatural" subjective. What is supernatural to one person, may not be to another if their particular understanding of nature is on a different level.

For an easy example, consider this: If you went back in time 2000 years and told someone living then, that one day someone would fly to the moon, they would think that the person would be a god, or at least have supernatural powers. To them, that would be the only possibilty.

Now the Buddha, and a few other highly "enlightened" people claim to have an understanding of nature and the universe that allows them undertake feats that appear to "unenlightened" people as supernatural. But if the power exists because of nature and is obtainable by anyone who can learn it, is it really supernatural?

Just a random thought. I'm only asking, because it sounds like you know a lot about the topic.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Ok... but what about the 'truth' of the belief. Believing in human-kind is believing in a tangible and obvious truth. Believing in God and angels isn't the same kind of belief... right? Is Cheese taking a leap of faith by believing that humans can be rational beings?? The same leap of faith that one takes to believe in God in Heaven?

The importance of your faith to you is one thing, but the accuracy of its actual existence (God, Angels, the Devil, as real beings) is a separate matter.

Cheese's faith is in the potential good in mankind. That hasn't been demonstrable in the known history of mankind. If he believes that all religions are an invention of mankind then he can't very well point to theism as the cause of the world's sorrow. What is in man himself is the cause of the sorrow we inflict upon one another.

The bible I trust in calls that sin. Cheese doesn't believe in sin(missing the mark) but, rather the potential goodness of mankind. In my mind history supports my position.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by daveyboy

Buddhism by definition is a non-theistic religion/philopshy/way of life.

From the Buddhist prespective, talking about whether or not there is a god/s does nothing to eliminate Dukka and atain Nibana.

If theism is the belief that there are god/s who exist and play an active role in the universe then Buddhism is most definitely non-theistic.

There are 'supernatural' elements in Buddhism (especially Tibetan Buddhism) but those would be better classed as Shamanism/Anamism and they relate more from the Bon religion of the past.

Daveyboy...as with all other theist practises you should know better than to lump all Buddhists in the same pile. You seem to count your particular Buddhist version as the true Buddhism yet discount one of the oldest versions known...Yes its the Tibetan version...you know the one with Dalai Lama? I would hazard a guess that the DL may be the most famous of all worldwide Buddhists.
Christians hate lumping Catholics or Mormons into their fold...but guess what...they are part of the Christian fold like it or not.

Tibbetan Buddhism

Tibetan Buddhism is a religion in exile, forced from its homeland when Tibet was conquered by the Chinese. At one time it was thought that 1 in 6 Tibetan men were Buddhist monks. The best known face of Tibetan Buddhism is the Dalai Lama, who has lived in exile in India since he fled Chinese occupation of his country in 1959.

Tibetan Buddhism combines the essential teachings of Mahayana Buddhism with Tantric and Shamanic, and material from an ancient Tibetan religion called Bon.

But like I said earlier...IF I chose to follow a religion I would probably choose Buddhism.

[Frank the Tank]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

10% =/= "nearly every penny", which was my point entirely.

10% of your annual income is a ridiculously high number.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by evman150

So a student can't be among the intellectual elite? Show me a free thinking 13 year old and I'll tell you he's one of us. Show me a free thinking 80 year old with an IQ of 89 and I'll tell you he's one of us as well.

What does free-thinking have to do with this? You aren't a free-thinker. You believe what you believe and you refuse to entertain any other explanation. You go so far as to insult anyone who doesn't agree with you. You call them the dregs of society for crying out loud. You've made up your mind. You aren't thinking (free or not) about anything.

One of us? Sheesh. Talk about delusional.