9/11 conspiracy theorists energized

[Barnes]

Fearmonger? Wow, nice arm waving. Why don't you just go stand on the roof of your house and scream out that you have no knowledge and are afraid to even attempt to garner new knowledge as it would challenge the tiny little box of a world you live in?

How about for once in the history of your time on the Internet you stop being condescending, sarcastic, and just a general, all around ******* and listen to yourself. You chastise users for not questioning things yet, they question you and they are whiney little bitches? You have offered nothing in response to questions posed to you other than pathetic fallacies. Your responses are not of any use to anyone because they contain no information.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Barnes

How about for once in the history of your time on the Internet you stop being condescending, sarcastic, and just a general, all around ******* and listen to yourself. You chastise users for not questioning things yet, they question you and they are whiney little bitches? You have offered nothing in response to questions posed to you other than pathetic fallacies. Your responses are not of any use to anyone because they contain no information.

Exactly.

But hey, if Lanny is afraid to actually put his theory to test in front of people that have really "been there done that" I guess we'll give him that much credibility.

Its like a scientist coming up with an explanation for Nuclear fission and not taking it to the highest levels possible in order to have it challenged by the smartest minds in the country.

I guess it makes Lanny sleep better posting rhetoric BS about 9/11 on a board where most people really don't care about it. And then when someone challenges him to actually go to a board that is centered around CT's, he spews more BS about him knowing everything, and me being stupid because I don't believe in the CT about 9/11.

How ironic.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Jesus Azure, get over yourself, I discuss this subject on other boards, and they are hypercritical and focus on proving/disproving any theories. Just because I don't like TAR's board does not mean I do not discuss it. It just means I do not choose to discuss it on that particular board. As I said I got sick of the bull**** that was going on there, not unlike I got sick of the bull**** that was going on here during the playoffs. There's only so much back-and-forth trolling you can take and I found that to be the case on many issues. My choice.

Barnes, what have you added to the discussion except a tired piece of crap Popular Mechanics article that got shredded for its lack of critical analysis and its misleading list of references? As I stated earlier, I will debate the issues, but when someone ADMITTEDLY makes a drive-by with a discreditted article, wtf do you expect?

[Staypuft]

I don't know enough about building schematics to argue any points about implosion etc when it comes to the actual falling of the buildings.

I do wonder though what your take is, Lanny, on the involvement of terrorists in 9/11, if any?

Like I said, Hulk Hogan could have come and given the buildings a big boot to make them fall for all I care, I'm just wondering what your take on terrorist involvement is.

[Moderator]

Attack the idea's guys, not the person. This thread is pretty close to being closed.

[Barnes]

Debunked yes. By the same people that brought you the Waco Texas Conspiracy, Madrid Bombing Conspiracy, London Bombing Conspriacy, The OKC Bombing Conspiracy, The TWA 800 Bombing Conspiracy. Mr. Meyer also touches on many other inspiring topics such as the legalization of ALL drugs, the abolishment of gun control.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Staypuft

I do wonder though what your take is, Lanny, on the involvement of terrorists in 9/11, if any?

My belief is that when the plan for the attack was originally discovered (in 1998) that it was studied and leveraged. I think that there was an element who had access to the information and knew how the attack was to take place, and they used that to their advantage.

From the information that I have reviewed I get the indication that the plan was to go after the WTC only. They (Yousef and company from 1993) had originally believed that they could take out the foundation and cause one tower to topple over into the next and cause a domino effect. When that was unsuccessful they decided to take a different approach and inflict as much damage on it as possible. They did not believe that the buildings would collapse using this attack, based on Yousef's (the guy who planned the whole thing) own testimony. The players involved in the plan were all in the country and were all under observation, according to FBI files. I think this was an opportunity.

I think that this plot was leveraged to consolidate power and make certain people and industries a lot of money. I think that with the knowledge of this plot was used to generate their new Pearl Harbor or Gulf of Tonkin incident. To make it even more outrageous, the concept of the attack on the pillars of America was dreamed up. By adding in the Pentagon and the Capitol/White House, you make the plot seem like it was an all out attack on everything that is American. Unfortuante it does not jive with the information that Yousef turned over to the Phillippine authorities, and what was later turned over to the American government.

I think the government knew the plan was taking place and they did what they could to make sure it was going to be a success, garnering them everything they had hoped for in the years leading up to the election. I think this included organizing a massive number of military exercises on the day (15), included the manufactured photo op in Florida (President was out of harms way and provided a diversion), included the demolition of all three WTC towers (the President's brother provided security for the WTC complex facilitating access to the buildings), and the attack on the Pentagon (on the fortified and almost empty side of the building to minimize casualties). The terrorist attack was real, but the government knew it was coming and did everything they could to make sure it was not stopped and lead to success.

That's how I see it anyways. Too many coincidences happened that were controlable by a select few people. Too many trails all lead to the same door. It's not that complex as most of it is misdirection, which we know the White House has been masterful at over the past six years. It's not a hugely complex conspiracy theory, and it just leverages the assets that certain people had at their disposal. That's the beauty of the plan, is that it is so simple and uses pieces already in play to cover their tracks.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Jesus Azure, get over yourself, I discuss this subject on other boards, and they are hypercritical and focus on proving/disproving any theories. Just because I don't like TAR's board does not mean I do not discuss it. It just means I do not choose to discuss it on that particular board. As I said I got sick of the bull**** that was going on there, not unlike I got sick of the bull**** that was going on here during the playoffs. There's only so much back-and-forth trolling you can take and I found that to be the case on many issues. My choice.

No Lanny, I asked you provide me a Link to the forums you are involved in and you refused, or ignored the request.

So the ball is in your court to prove you don't like to spam a hockey board with your idea/fact/opinion/CT.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

No Lanny, I asked you provide me a Link to the forums you are involved in and you refused, or ignored the request.

So the ball is in your court to prove you don't like to spam a hockey board with your idea/fact/opinion/CT.

Sorry buddy, that information is none of your business and is irrelevant. I explained my position on that. If you don't believe me that's your problem. Do I ask you what other boards you post on? No, that's none of my business and is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Frankly, you're doing what you always do when you've got nothing, and that's arm waving. You try and debase the information I post because you have none yourself. You try and marginalize it because I do not post on a site of your choosing. That's a joke. I have said I discuss it elsewhere, and that should be enough for you and anyone else. Also, isn't this the off topic board, and wasn't this thread started by someone else? Man, its no wonder Looger bounced from this site. The closeminded *******s like yourself make it impossible to discuss anything that doesn't agree with their stance.

[Azure]

I figured Lanny.

You've never been to any other forums to discuss your theories, so you make yourself look big by spamming a hockey forum.

There goes your credibility.

I'm done here.

[Staypuft]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

My belief is that when the plan for the attack was originally discovered (in 1998) that it was studied and leveraged. I think that there was an element who had access to the information and knew how the attack was to take place, and they used that to their advantage.

That's how I see it anyways. Too many coincidences happened that were controlable by a select few people. Too many trails all lead to the same door. It's not that complex as most of it is misdirection, which we know the White House has been masterful at over the past six years. It's not a hugely complex conspiracy theory, and it just leverages the assets that certain people had at their disposal. That's the beauty of the plan, is that it is so simple and uses pieces already in play to cover their tracks.

I thank you very much for the response Lanny. As a person who isn't super-versed in all the theories and what not, that was the one thing I hadn't heard a lot about, was what role terrorism actually played in the attack for some conspiracy theorists.

I appreciate what you believe, and I agree that because the day was so chaotic, a lot of people were reporting a lot of different things, hence why there is so much controversy now.

I do not share your beliefs at all but can appreciate the passion you have for it.

It's a passion I do not share, likely because I am not american, but I do find the debate itself to be interesting.

Again, thanks for the long response.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

I figured Lanny.

You've never been to any other forums to discuss your theories, so you make yourself look big by spamming a hockey forum.

There goes your credibility.

I'm done here.

Credibility because YOU think I don't discuss things on other forums? What a joke. Sure thing. Again, what does where I post have to do with anything? You care to comment on that you prick? What does where anyone posts beyond the confines of Calgarypuck have to do with anything? It doesn't! That is nothing but arm waving bull**** by a no mind who has nothing on the subject. Why should I give you ANY information about anything that doesn't pertain directly to the topic under discussion on THIS board? Why don't YOU tell us where all the boards are that YOU post to?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Staypuft

Again, thanks for the long response.

You're welcome. If it gets you to pick up a book and read it on the subject then the whole debate was worthwhile. Heck, even you saying that you fund out somethng new makes it worthwhile. Afterall, isn't that what these boards are for, discussion and sharing of ideas and arguments? Some people will say otherwise, but I think that's what they are for.

[Barnes]

Lanny,

What you have posted are, to me the most plausable of the conspiracy theories. I have a lot of trouble with some of the ideas brought forth by the websites you have linked to. I would like to see what Yousef turned into the authorities.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Lanny,

What you have posted are, to me the most plausable of the conspiracy theories. I have a lot of trouble with some of the ideas brought forth by the websites you have linked to. I would like to see what Yousef turned into the authorities.

See, I'm not a crazy as some would try and portray, just have to defend a lot of what I say with stuff from sites that are less than credible IMO. Most of my opinion is based on information from books and non-web accessible data stores. Sounds like a cop out, but its true. A lot of the quality information is now restricted, and for good reason, there is some very damning testimony that people don't want you to know about. An example is some information I came across while reading the testimony of the surviving fire department staff who were on site that day.

The EOC (Emergency Operations Center) for that end of Manhattan was in WTC 7. That site was not used because of the recommendation of a FEMA official. INstead they moved to a temporary EOC four blocks away that had been set up for a drill that was to takeplace the very next day focused on, you guessed it, planes hitting the WTC. I can't stress enough how improbable it is to abandon your permanent EOC for a temporary one. The only reason you would do so would be if the building were threatened. Since this was a first responder, and the first plane has just hit, there was no threat to WTC7 at the time. So what a coincidence that they should decide to pull up stakes and go to another site. What an amazing stroke of luck that this extra EOC should be available! To the command staff this was extremely unsettling, based on their individual testimony. By standard procedure, they all should have been in WTC7 and killed in the collapse of that building. Another series of coincidences that just scream inside job.

It is a very interesting subject. If you want some background on 9/11, and what the government knew, a very good book to start out with is 1000 Years for Revenge, by Peter Lance. It traces everything from 1989-ish to the attack. Really an eye openner. The same guy wrote a followup to the events and its damning. The guy is a very good investigative journalist and lays out a very strong timeline.

[ikaris]

Originally Posted by Azure

How ironic.

Funny how people go around telling everyone PM is wrong because they're owned by a corporation.

Well no kidding.

And then you try to tell people to look elsewhere for their information, because, like Lanny, you think PM is dead wrong and has been torn to shreds by the people that know "everything" about 9/11.

Oh right, the Hearst Corporation...

I'm not saying PM is right or wrong, I'm just saying keep in mind the political motivations that an entity might have when presenting their side of the story.

This applies to both sides, whether you believe one side of the story or not. That is why I am saying to do your own research, and draw your own conclusions rather than trusting someone else do to your thinking for you.

[drp_69]

I am really surprised that a topic like this appears on this forum. I am also surprised and stunned that there are 9/11 "sceptics" and none other than our highly esteemed (hockey wise) Lanny Mac!
How about this for a 'drive by" post.
I dont expect a response from LM as he has totally ignored all my posts up to now.
I dont buy this 9/11 conspiracy, the main reason, before I get into ANY details, is that in order for it to work, or even remotely ring true, it would require ever enlarging circles of co-conspirators. I just dont think that all the individuals that would need to be involved in order to pull this off, would have been able to keep quiet about what exactly they are involved in. We dont hear from shady characters running to the press (all allegedly somehow manipulated by the govt according to the theory) and syaing 'hey I planted thermalite in the WTC' or 'hey I sold thermalite to Mr X to bring doen the WTC'.
My point is, just as there may be holes in the 'official' version of what happened there are even more holes and questions in this conspiracy theory. (and it is only a theory, and as such requires proof to uphold it).
The ever enlarging circles of co-conspirators would widen so much to involve the Bilderbergers the ULTIMATE conspirators!

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by drp_69

I dont buy this 9/11 conspiracy, the main reason, before I get into ANY details, is that in order for it to work, or even remotely ring true, it would require ever enlarging circles of co-conspirators. I just dont think that all the individuals that would need to be involved in order to pull this off, would have been able to keep quiet about what exactly they are involved in. We dont hear from shady characters running to the press (all allegedly somehow manipulated by the govt according to the theory) and syaing 'hey I planted thermalite in the WTC' or 'hey I sold thermalite to Mr X to bring doen the WTC'.

Not so. Compartmentalization allows for operations like this to take place without the others knowing what is going on. Person "A" delivers thermalite to person "B" in a nondesript box, who in turn delivers it to person "C" who then delivers it to warehouse where it is later picked up by those who will us it. Person "A" only knows that he delivered it to person "B". Person "B" doesn't have any idea what he's transporting. "Same for person "C". The only people who know what the package is for is the one who picks it up. The guy who delivers a package to a warehouse in New Jersey is just doing his job. He has no idea what is in the package and that it could contain explosives. He's just doing his job.

Also, the "patriots", as they would call themselves, believe in what they are doing and would take the information to their grave. By giving people small assignments that appear to be unimportant in the big picture it prevents people from knowing they were involved in a bigger operation. Loyalty to the cause makes these things happen, and let me tell you, there are people in the United States that are more loyal to the cause than you can imagine. No sin is too great when you are talking about the spread of democracy and the protection of the American way of life. Ironically, we ARE expected to believe that 19 young arabs were capable of pulling of this highly complex operation with very little training. Doesn't add up.

[drp_69]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Ironically, we ARE expected to believe that 19 young arabs were capable of pulling of this highly complex operation with very little training. Doesn't add up.

I disagree. I think it was a cleverly simple operation, the only thing "complex" about it was the timing of the hijacks, which was critical for the surprise element. It probably did not go as well as planned, but I think they achieved way better results then even their wildest dreams.
We will never agree on this argument Lanny, primarily because you discredit all my sources and visa versa. Its like trying to argue with a religous fundamentalist who keeps quoting the bible when you may not necessarily believe everything in the bible.

[badnarik]

i used to be in the military and would quite regularly fall asleep in front of radar screens. the radars are cozy and dark. it doesn't seem too farfetched to me that there were just a lot of people sleeping on the job--in all sorts of jobs--on 9/11

lots of stupid people, lots of sleeping people, lots of lazy people, lots of content people all vs a few overzealous fanatics seems like the simplest answer to me.

if the government were involved there is no way the plan would have worked. thats the clincher for me.