Israel and Lebanon now fighting

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Regorium

My hatred for the USA grows daily.

This is seriously all about the oil. They know that Lebanon is backed by Syria and Iran (although very cautiously). They just want to provoke action from these two countries, then they have an excuse to seize control of Iranian oilfields through military force.

Exactly what they did to Iraq.

**** the USA.

I guess it has nothing to do with terrorist actions against Israel.



War for Oil, Bush lied people died, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush.....can you people actually stop blaming Bush for something that happens throughout the world. Bush had "nothing" to do with Israel striking against Lebanon. He may support it, but he never started it, nor is it his fault.

As many posters in this thread and previous ones have said, this conflict goes back a long time. Back before Bush had anything to do with the ME. Maybe you should blame the UN for what is happening, since they're the ones who set up the land of Israel, and ended up creating the problems.

But no, every freakin' thing that happens is the US's fault.

Use some common sense for once in your pathetic life.

[Cube Inmate]

^^^^

Hell yah... nothing better for the USA than provoking *more* instability in the region. If they can only start a regional war...that should double the price of oil in a matter of weeks, *JUST* as the USA is hoping for!

Nothing's better for the country's economy than f-ing up the supply of their most important import, eh?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Cube Inmate

^^^^

Hell yah... nothing better for the USA than provoking *more* instability in the region. If they can only start a regional war...that should double the price of oil in a matter of weeks, *JUST* as the USA is hoping for!

Nothing's better for the country's economy than f-ing up the supply of their most important import, eh?

No kidding.

This is a conflict between Israel and the idiots that kidnapped/attacked them. I don't exactly support the actions of Israel, especially with their massive bombing campaign, but I do wish they could solve the problem once and for all.

But I have a feeling the US, Syria and Iran, plus a bunch of other countries will get involved as well.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by Azure

I guess it has nothing to do with terrorist actions against Israel.



War for Oil, Bush lied people died, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush.....can you people actually stop blaming Bush for something that happens throughout the world. Bush had "nothing" to do with Israel striking against Lebanon. He may support it, but he never started it, nor is it his fault.

As many posters in this thread and previous ones have said, this conflict goes back a long time. Back before Bush had anything to do with the ME. Maybe you should blame the UN for what is happening, since they're the ones who set up the land of Israel, and ended up creating the problems.

But no, every freakin' thing that happens is the US's fault.

Use some common sense for once in your pathetic life.

Do you truly believe that USA has no influence in Israel's actions? Do you not find it peculiar the timing of this attack just as the UN was supposed to meet about the Iran situation?

Yes, a terrorist act started it. But why then, is Israel bombing TV stations, bombing airports, just blowing up civilian targets? Should they not first go the diplomatic route, as we are taught in western culture, then go through the UN, then declare war and then start this attack?

And I blame the UN? The UN just had a resolution for Israel to halt attacks, and the USA vetoed it. The US ****ing vetoed a peaceful solution. How can you say that that's not politcally charged?

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Regorium

Do you truly believe that USA has no influence in Israel's actions? Do you not find it peculiar the timing of this attack just as the UN was supposed to meet about the Iran situation?

No influence? Hardly. They probably do have a great deal of influence.

That said, the US by no means controls Israel. Israel acted on their own.

Originally Posted by Regorium

Yes, a terrorist act started it. But why then, is Israel bombing TV stations, bombing airports, just blowing up civilian targets? Should they not first go the diplomatic route, as we are taught in western culture, then go through the UN, then declare war and then start this attack?

How long would that take? How many more soldiers would be captured in the meantime?

I'm not saying that every time a soldier is kidnapped should an attack immediately follow... but when dealing with terrorists, they don't speak another language.

Originally Posted by Regorium

And I blame the UN? The UN just had a resolution for Israel to halt attacks, and the USA vetoed it. The US ****ing vetoed a peaceful solution. How can you say that that's not politcally charged?

When was the last UN resolution getting Lebanon to control its terrorists?

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by calculoso

...
How long would that take? How many more soldiers would be captured in the meantime?

I'm not saying that every time a soldier is kidnapped should an attack immediately follow... but when dealing with terrorists, they don't speak another language.

When was the last UN resolution getting Lebanon to control its terrorists?

I see, so instead of trying to speak another language, we're going to cut off food and all supplies to 4 million people, bomb their airport so they can't get out, destroy the TV stations so they don't get any news. Who's the real terrorist here?

There was none. Should there be? Yeah, absolutely. BUT, it's not the same as this case, where a peaceful solution was offered, but was vetoed by the Americans. Several years ago, they went AGAINST the UN and declared war on Iraq. That's having zero respect for the international community.

[Cube Inmate]

Regorium:

You showed that you're incapable of considering this argument logically when your first post ignored the current situation, and instead focused on your hatred for the USA.

You really shouldn't even bother thinking about these kinds of complex issues if your "I H8 DA USA" switch is triggered so easily.

[Azure]

Do you truly believe that USA has no influence in Israel's actions? Do you not find it peculiar the timing of this attack just as the UN was supposed to meet about the Iran situation?

What does that have to do with the US being to blame for Israel attacking Lebanon? The US may support it, but by no means did they start it.

Israel is an indepedent nation.

Yes, a terrorist act started it. But why then, is Israel bombing TV stations, bombing airports, just blowing up civilian targets? Should they not first go the diplomatic route, as we are taught in western culture, then go through the UN, then declare war and then start this attack?

How should I figure that out. We're not there, we have no idea what Isreal wants to do, and why they bomb certain places. Why are the terrorist lauching rockets at Israeli cities? I see you failed to notice that.

And I blame the UN? The UN just had a resolution for Israel to halt attacks, and the USA vetoed it. The US ****ing vetoed a peaceful solution. How can you say that that's not politcally charged?

Peaceful solution? You got be kidding me. You are indeed a pathetic idiot, who has no intellect outside of "I hate the US."

Get over your anti-Americanism, and then we might talk.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Cube Inmate

^^^^

Hell yah... nothing better for the USA than provoking *more* instability in the region. If they can only start a regional war...that should double the price of oil in a matter of weeks, *JUST* as the USA is hoping for!

Nothing's better for the country's economy than f-ing up the supply of their most important import, eh?

Well, let's do what Azure suggested and use some common sense. Who profits most from the instability? The oil companies. I can think of 10 billion reasons why oil companies were happy about the instability in the oil market during the last quarter. So would the Bush admin give a rip about anything else if their buddies in the oil business are making money hand over fist and their buddies in the military industrial complex are making money hand over fist? Nope. Bush has displayed a great distain for the American people throughout his presidency, so please don't think for a second the average American citizen means a damn thing to this guy and the twisted idiots pulling his strings. He doesn't care. Never has, never will.

Having said that, I don't think Bush can be blamed for any of this. I think this is Israel's fault.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Regorium

I see, so instead of trying to speak another language, we're going to cut off food and all supplies to 4 million people, bomb their airport so they can't get out, destroy the TV stations so they don't get any news. Who's the real terrorist here?

There was none. Should there be? Yeah, absolutely. BUT, it's not the same as this case, where a peaceful solution was offered, but was vetoed by the Americans. Several years ago, they went AGAINST the UN and declared war on Iraq. That's having zero respect for the international community.

A peaceful solution was offered? "We won't attack you again or kidnap any of your people, until we change our minds and ask for a cease-fire again" kind of a peaceful solution?

The terrorists (and I'm lumping Hamas in there, based on their history) have not shown that they will participate in any dialog, and even when there is dialog, they ignore it. How do you propose that Israel handle this when they would be the only ones talking?

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Having said that, I don't think Bush can be blamed for any of this. I think this is Israel's fault.

Israel has a part to play, but the bigger fault has to lie at the feet of Hizbola (sp?) and Hamas and the governments of those countries who have done nothing to stop them. They have to learn that you just don't go into another country's and kidnap soldiers.

Did they just think that Israel would go "ho hum... another soldier gone... let's just hope they don't do it again"?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Israel has a part to play, but the bigger fault has to lie at the feet of Hizbola (sp?) and Hamas and the governments of those countries who have done nothing to stop them. They have to learn that you just don't go into another country's and kidnap soldiers.

Did they just think that Israel would go "ho hum... another soldier gone... let's just hope they don't do it again"?

As I have pointed out, it is pretty tough for Hamas to control all the factions that claim to be part of their organization. Or are you saying Bush should swing from a rope because someone in the American military raped and murdered Iraqi citizens? Because it seems you're expecting the leader of Hamas to do what Bush can't, and Bush has a much more structured system to work with.

Also, WTF is Israel doing bombing the homes of the Hamas leadership? You think for a second that is going to help the situation any? Jesus, imagine if Hamas had assassinated the Israeli Prime Minister. You think Israel would have responded with a little more than just kidnapping a couple of soldiers? I think they would have lit up sky with the burning homes of Palestinians. Both are to blame here, but Israel takes things to the next level. Hamas kidnaps a soldier. Israel assassinates one of the leaders of the government. Yeah, that's an equitable response. Maybe they should have done what we would do here, and investigate the situation and arrest those that are responsible, or arrest their families. Killing those elected as diplomats is NOT a solution.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Stephen Harper firmly puts his support behind Israel.

"Israel has the right to defend itself," the prime minister told reporters aboard a Canadian Forces Airbus en route to London, where he's starting a week-long diplomatic mission.


"I think Israel's response under the circumstances has been measured."

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/13072006/...-conflict.html

[CaptainCrunch]

There can be no political solution in this whole thing until Hamas returns the soldier unharmed, and actually takes steps to normalize its relationship with its neighbour. Sure Hamas won the election, however that dosen't absolve them of thier bloody murderous past, and if they want to be a government they have to actually act like it. They've done tremendous harm to thier own people, both as the government in place and before that.

Its easy to blame Israel, but both the attacks by Hamas, and the Hezbollah(sp?) have taken place in pre 1967 borders, and can easily be interpreted as an act of war.

Hamas has been told that they have to reign in the militants since they got elected both by Israel and by forces inside of Palestine, instead they turned a blind eye as more rockets were launched into Israel, and a soldier was kidnapped. The bloody hell of it is that until Hamas drops its drive all of the Jews into the ocean byline there is no room for Israel to negotiate with them, they are still a terrorist group.

So hows Israel at fault for this? They're not, they've been attacked multiple times by outside terrorists forces directly linked to semi legitimate goverments. Hezbollah who gains comfort and aid in Lebanon, and Hamas who is attached to the government in Palestine. Has Israel's repsonse been heavy handed? Sure but thats because the actions of thier neighbours has forced that reaction, by never recognizing that the Jewish neighbour has a right to survive as mandated by the UN, and continuing to turn a blind eye as terrorist groups operating out of thier own nations.

This has nothing to do with the U.S., this is Israel finally and truly going over the edge and lashing back after years of betrayal against thier acts of good faith, and honestly its about time that they went after the heads of these governments, maybe it will save the lives of the poor stupid shmuch who picks up a rifle and thinks he's fighting a noble cause.

I've noticed that the UN has put out resolutions condemming Israel's response but fails in any way to condemm the Lebanon and Palestine for thier acts of terrorism or support of the terrorists committing the acts. But I shouldn't expect much out of a international body that failed in any way to protect Israel after its formation which created this situation, and has a human rights council made up of nations that couldn't even spell human rights.

But its a joke to blindly condemn Israel, without condemning and being angry at the stupidity that happens daily in Lebanon and Syria, and Iran, and Palestine. Where's the condemnation for those states?

[Regorium]

First of all, I've made an intelligent argument. As Lanny pointed out, instability in oil prices benefits the massive oil corporations. The only ones that suffer are you and me: the consumer. We feel that there is no benefit in increasing oil prices, but absolutely, they do. Hell, in Alberta, you should know this more than anything.

Second of all, I'd like to state that i don't agree with Harper. I think that yes, Israel is entitled to self-defence, but really, is what they're doing right now self defence? You know, bombing the airport, tv stations, and all that. So far, 55 civilians have been killed, no mention of the hundreds wounded. How long must this go on? Should we just drop a nuclear bomb on them in the name of self-defence?

Still, the solution to this? It's almost impossible. The soldiers must be returned, but how are you going to ask for that when you've just claimed 55 lives in the first couple hours of conflict? Someone has to give first, and Israel is in the position of power. They have to walk the high ground yet again, and appeal for international support. I think that they need to win back the support of the international community that's deserted them in the face of the atrocious retaliations in order to have any pull in the hearts of the Lebanese and Palestinian people.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Regorium

They have to walk the high ground yet again, and appeal for international support.

Yeah.. 'cause that's done them a lot of good so far.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Azure

I guess it has nothing to do with terrorist actions against Israel.



War for Oil, Bush lied people died, Bush, Bush, Bush, Bush.....can you people actually stop blaming Bush for something that happens throughout the world. Bush had "nothing" to do with Israel striking against Lebanon. He may support it, but he never started it, nor is it his fault.

As many posters in this thread and previous ones have said, this conflict goes back a long time. Back before Bush had anything to do with the ME. Maybe you should blame the UN for what is happening, since they're the ones who set up the land of Israel, and ended up creating the problems.

But no, every freakin' thing that happens is the US's fault.

Use some common sense for once in your pathetic life.

Agreed, there is nothing more ignorant than blaming everything on "its for the oil". There are much much much much cheaper and secure ways for the U.S. to get oil rather than through a hundreds of billions of dollar foreign policy and military. It simply makes no sense.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

As I have pointed out, it is pretty tough for Hamas to control all the factions that claim to be part of their organization. Or are you saying Bush should swing from a rope because someone in the American military raped and murdered Iraqi citizens? Because it seems you're expecting the leader of Hamas to do what Bush can't, and Bush has a much more structured system to work with.

When I see Hamas denounce the acts of those who claim to be part of their organization, then I'll agree that they aren't part of it. Until that time, their silence in the matter is consent and compliance to it.

Unless I've missed it, Hamas has never denounced any kind of attack (bomb, kidnapping, etc) against Israel. In fact, that's what they are known for.

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Both are to blame here, but Israel takes things to the next level. Hamas kidnaps a soldier. Israel assassinates one of the leaders of the government. Yeah, that's an equitable response. Maybe they should have done what we would do here, and investigate the situation and arrest those that are responsible, or arrest their families. Killing those elected as diplomats is NOT a solution.

I suppose that we'll never see another war, because the investigations and arrests will take care of everything?

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Regorium

First of all, I've made an intelligent argument. As Lanny pointed out, instability in oil prices benefits the massive oil corporations. The only ones that suffer are you and me: the consumer. We feel that there is no benefit in increasing oil prices, but absolutely, they do. Hell, in Alberta, you should know this more than anything.

Second of all, I'd like to state that i don't agree with Harper. I think that yes, Israel is entitled to self-defence, but really, is what they're doing right now self defence? You know, bombing the airport, tv stations, and all that. So far, 55 civilians have been killed, no mention of the hundreds wounded. How long must this go on? Should we just drop a nuclear bomb on them in the name of self-defence?

Still, the solution to this? It's almost impossible. The soldiers must be returned, but how are you going to ask for that when you've just claimed 55 lives in the first couple hours of conflict? Someone has to give first, and Israel is in the position of power. They have to walk the high ground yet again, and appeal for international support. I think that they need to win back the support of the international community that's deserted them in the face of the atrocious retaliations in order to have any pull in the hearts of the Lebanese and Palestinian people.

This entire statement makes no sense. As stated above, I think the oil argument is flawed unless the oil companies are somehow instigating these conflicts by pulling the strings in some kind of macabre conspiracy and I think tha'ts ridiculous. Israel doesn't care about oil and the West is not involved in this conflict . 55 lives is nothing. Isreal and Palestine have made peace over more bloodshed before. You are sadly mistaken if you think Israel would ever have any "pull in the hearts of the Lebanese and Palestinian people". Brokered peace in the past has been for practicality, not sentimentality. You think bombing a few roads, airports, TV stations, etc. as an act of self-defense is not warranted or set by precedent? Israel has lost thousands of people throughout the years due to Hezbollah rockets launched from Palestine and Lebanon and through myriad numbers of Hamas suicide bombings and attacks through the intifatah. The U.S. responded to one terrorist attack by going out and occupying two middle east countries. What Israel is doing is childsplay in comparision and blown out of proportion.

Both the Lebanese and elected governments in Palestine have never denounced these attacks or made it official policy to stop these militants. What's happening now is genuine act of war on all parties. And you know what? Isreal doesn't need western support nor care for it. In their minds they have survived for half a century surrounded by enemies and will carry on doing their thing. Isreal has always made its policy on assasinating leaders via helicopter gunship or committing military attacks rather than the flacid "investigate and arrest those responsible" suggestion by Lanny since it's virtually impossible since those responsible have in all ways and means, been santioned and endorsed by those governments in the first place. Sure is easier to send a chopper out to send a message rather than spending all the manpower and causing more bloodshed by sending a military force into Palestine to "investigate" and "arrest" whoever is responsible since it's a needle in a haystack owned by Hamas anyway.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Regorium

First of all, I've made an intelligent argument. As Lanny pointed out, instability in oil prices benefits the massive oil corporations. The only ones that suffer are you and me: the consumer. We feel that there is no benefit in increasing oil prices, but absolutely, they do. Hell, in Alberta, you should know this more than anything.

I guess it took Lanny to give you confidence. At least he can defend himself; you look to others for your viewpoint.