Missing link for bird evolution discovered

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Neeper

Cheese, I must ask... why do you ALWAYS have to debate religion? You know there's no point, let them believe what they want.

He does the same thing religious people try to do. Convince us about his viewpoint.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by photon

For some reason opponents of evolution seem to think that finding one aspect of it that isn't complete yet or doesn't fully describe observations invalidates the whole theory... that's simply not the case (in science anyway). .

I think another thing some opponents ignore is that Darwin only articulated one mechanism for evolution; ie. natural selection.

Most biologists believe that there are other mechanisms at work too. Genetic acquisition through symbiosis is a major one that is believed to work on micro-organisms, and it is believed to be partially responsible for helping to create the system of organelles that cells use (plant and animal). This is also believed to be a blueprint for the sytem of organs most multi-cellular organisms use.

There are a lot of papers on the subject:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...arch&hl=en&lr=

[Skyceman]

Originally Posted by photon

For some reason opponents of evolution seem to think that finding one aspect of it that isn't complete yet or doesn't fully describe observations invalidates the whole theory... that's simply not the case (in science anyway). A theory best describes observed data, and if new data invalidates one aspect of or the entire theory, a new one will take its place. So far nothing has been able to better describe the observations. (And don't say intelligent design, that's not science).

That's a great cop out for the theory but I can see why proponents take that stance. The fossil record is the biggest problem and yes it can invalidate the whole theory since its foundation is based around it. It's far easier to say "well we just haven't found the thousands of gaps yet". As Francis Crick, discoverer of DNA so eloquently put, "Every time I write a paper on the origin of life, I determine I will never write another one, because there is too much speculation running after too few facts".

Originally Posted by photon

From reading a few reviews on Deton's book; seems his misunderstanding of the theory led him to quite a few of his conclusions. I haven't read it though.

May be so but it's an older book now. There's even more material out there today to further dispute the theory.

[Neeper]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Cus its what I do Neeper...I would assume the same as you would if it was a Photography thread.
All sides must always be equally represented....and mine has been held back for far too long.

Fair enough. I just think it's funny because there's no point (to me). If someone was trying to convert you, then I would understand. I am on your side, and I gave up doing what you do. There's no point anymore trying to convince people who keep saying "You gotta have faith!" I had this Christian kid at work tell that I was going to hell if I don't convert. That was the end of me ever having a reasonable debate over religion ever again.

Anybody else ever think how better the earth must have been, when humans weren't around yet? And just by chance, the proper molecules and elements came together, to make us to screw it all up later.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Skyceman

That's a great cop out for the theory but I can see why proponents take that stance. The fossil record is the biggest problem and yes it can invalidate the whole theory since its foundation is based around it. It's far easier to say "well we just haven't found the thousands of gaps yet". As Francis Crick, discoverer of DNA so eloquently put, "Every time I write a paper on the origin of life, I determine I will never write another one, because there is too much speculation running after too few facts".



May be so but it's an older book now. There's even more material out there today to further dispute the theory.

So what do you believe in then?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Azure

He does the same thing religious people try to do. Convince us about his viewpoint.

And so what? We are fed 24 hours a day of religious TV, Articles and pronouncements. The World is rife with distress over religion and its plastered on TV every single day....yet I mention anything against it and Im the same? Whatever floats your boat Azure.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Skyceman

That's a great cop out for the theory but I can see why proponents take that stance. The fossil record is the biggest problem and yes it can invalidate the whole theory since its foundation is based around it. It's far easier to say "well we just haven't found the thousands of gaps yet". As Francis Crick, discoverer of DNA so eloquently put, "Every time I write a paper on the origin of life, I determine I will never write another one, because there is too much speculation running after too few facts".



May be so but it's an older book now. There's even more material out there today to further dispute the theory.

So if the fossil recording measures that are used now are inaccurate, are you suggesting that the bible or a specific religion has it down better? If so how, and please be specific.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Neeper

Fair enough. I just think it's funny because there's no point (to me). If someone was trying to convert you, then I would understand. I am on your side, and I gave up doing what you do. There's no point anymore trying to convince people who keep saying "You gotta have faith!" I had this Christian kid at work tell that I was going to hell if I don't convert. That was the end of me ever having a reasonable debate over religion ever again.

Anybody else ever think how better the earth must have been, when humans weren't around yet? And just by chance, the proper molecules and elements came together, to make us to screw it all up later.

The problem is Neeps that what they rely on...for us to just finally shake our head in disgust and go away. They know they have the ability to stay in power by simply waiting...and waiting and waiting. Unfortunately for them the media is doing its job now uncovering BS on a daily basis and helping educated people to see beyond superstition.
We wont go away anymore...there are now millions of people like myself that are prepared to point out the fallacies everytime its pointed out that Noah built that boat...and sailed her home to Liza. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion...it simply disturbs those who cant see beoynd the pages of a bible...they think they know.
There are many Religious people who suggest that the Bible is ...well...a fallacy...yet follow a doctrine that relies on the use of this book? Why?

Man can be good...man can support his kind and do many wonderful things without religion as a crutch.

In the end...what good does it do to teach a child that if hes bad, a sorrowful and painful life after death awaits him?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Cheese

And so what? We are fed 24 hours a day of religious TV, Articles and pronouncements. The World is rife with distress over religion and its plastered on TV every single day....yet I mention anything against it and Im the same? Whatever floats your boat Azure.

Just saying that you'll probably never get anywhere. Religious people are as stubbern in their belief of God, as you are in your belief of no God.

I have nothing against you.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Azure

Just saying that you'll probably never get anywhere. Religious people are as stubbern in their belief of God, as you are in your belief of no God.

I have nothing against you.

Maybe not on this board I wont...but Humanists/Atheists are most definately making progress worldwide.
We dont aspire to tell anyone how to live their life.

[Skyceman]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

So what do you believe in then?

That science does not yet have the answers nor may never. Evolution is a great attempt but it falls short as being the answer to one of life's greatest mysteries.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Skyceman

That science does not yet have the answers nor may never. Evolution is a great attempt but it falls short as being the answer to one of life's greatest mysteries.

So you honestly don't know? You aren't partial to any theory?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Maybe not on this board I wont...but Humanists/Atheists are most definately making progress worldwide.
We dont aspire to tell anyone how to live their life.

You should be inspiration to others though. Just don't shove the belief down their throats.

[Skyceman]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

So you honestly don't know? You aren't partial to any theory?

Are my views important to this discussion? What do they have to do with the holes in Evolution?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Azure

You should be inspiration to others though. Just don't shove the belief down their throats.

Ok Ill bite...tell me how you would do that on a message board? When I post I always have a smile...I dont sit here with hatred on my face, or a desire to toss a spear at the first Christian I see...LOL.
When a point is made about a religious theory I usually bring out links and ideas espoused by my side suggesting that the religious idea may be...tainted?
I havent once suggested anyone come join my side....I usually dont belittle anyone or call them a fool for their beliefs, and I have never said quit your choice of religion because of my ideas.
The fact that I am adamant about my choice simply irks those of the religious fold, because I can argue my point pretty decently.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Ok Ill bite...tell me how you would do that on a message board? When I post I always have a smile...I dont sit here with hatred on my face, or a desire to toss a spear at the first Christian I see...LOL.
When a point is made about a religious theory I usually bring out links and ideas espoused by my side suggesting that the religious idea may be...tainted?
I havent once suggested anyone come join my side....I usually dont belittle anyone or call them a fool for their beliefs, and I have never said quit your choice of religion because of my ideas.
The fact that I am adamant about my choice simply irks those of the religious fold, because I can argue my point pretty decently.

You don't have to directly suggest that anyone should join your side, but some people may become interested in what you're saying and research it for themselves.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Azure

You don't have to directly suggest that anyone should join your side, but some people may become interested in what you're saying and research it for themselves.

I dont think I have once said...come join the Atheists or Humanists. I have provided multiple links when asked or when someone wonders what they are.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Skyceman

Are my views important to this discussion? What do they have to do with the holes in Evolution?

Well, when you site lack of evidence for not beleiving a certain theory, that would imply you have a theory which is more sound than evolution which you believe in.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Skyceman

Are my views important to this discussion? What do they have to do with the holes in Evolution?

Well, for starters, what are the "holes" in evolutionary theory that you speak of? In general, the debate among scientists has to do not with whether evolution occurred, but with how it occurred. By the way, the fossil record isn't the whole story, though it is a compelling bit of evidence that can't be explained away. There's also DNA evidence, and the evidence that's provided by contemporary biology. Most mammals are morphologically somewhat similar. What's the explanation for that?

Incidentally, if your objection is, as you said earlier, that "science can't explain everything," then I wholeheartedly agree. If you read my original post, which you quoted from rather selectively, you'll see that my point was that science doesn't even attempt to explain the same questions that religion/spirituality does. Plenty of scientists are religious--they aren't mutually exclusive belief systems.

[Agamemnon]

Having followed Cheese' 'anti-religious' rants for months (maybe years) now, I can certainly say one thing. At least he's interested in debating the points. There is nothing wrong with questioning assumed truths and falsehoods. If one side is going to make a claim (ie, there IS a God) then they're going to have to back that up. If they can't, or don't feel like it, they don't have to... but it does hack away at the credibility of their faith, something I can't see any truly faithful person wanting.

As long as people here are willing to debate the issue with him, then he's not 'shoving' anything down anyone's throats. Its your choice whether or not you want to engage him in this debate, and if you do, then obviously there _is_ a point in discussing the issue with him.

I don't get people who say this debate is 'pointless', if there are people on both sides who are willing to be represented, then its not pointless. Hell, the fact that people even bother to say its pointless is contradictory, given the fact that they're reading and posting in this thread.

There _are_ people who read these threads who are actually influenced by the points made; chances are a lot of these people never post. Threads like this provide a fantastic array of 'options' people can mull over when considering the purpose of life.

Cheese is fighting the good fight, and I don't see any personal disrespect in almost any of his posts, despite what some people apparently see in his actions. He's going for logic and truth, I figure those are good things to be militant about. I find more often than not that he's pushing for facts and proof, and is getting hammered for what in any other field would be extremely reasonable requests.