Haditha....

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Now there is another one.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/5039420.stm

The BBC has uncovered new video evidence that US forces may have been responsible for the deliberate killing of 11 innocent Iraqi civilians.

Jesus. If these guys are guilty they should let the families of the victims have their say on what the punishment should be. There is egg on the face of the entire US Military/Government if this happens to be true. This makes them look like marauders as opposed to liberators.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

It's the military investigating this whole thing and it will be the military that puts them on trial if it comes to it. Who exactly are you giving the benefit of the doubt?

Those Marines. Until they are "proven" guilty, I'll continue giving them the benefit of the doubt.

If you knew some of the members in the US Military, been around them, grew up on military bases your whole life and seen your brothers come back from Iraq and then go right back, you'd understand why I give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Azure

Those Marines. Until they are "proven" guilty, I'll continue giving them the benefit of the doubt.

And we should all give them the benefit of the doubt, pending a thorough investigation of their actions. After all, under our legal system, "innocent until proven guilty" is supposed to be the rule. One important question is the extent to which they were either a) following orders or b) placed in an impossible situation by their superiors or c) improperly prepared for the situation they found themselves in.

I'm not prepared to judge them from all the way over here. Who knows how I would act in their situation? I hope that I would always do the moral and correct thing, but fear and anger can be powerful, confusing emotions.

The sad thing? My guess is that the Bush administration will quickly make scapegoats of these kids. I hope I'm wrong, but mark my words--the establishment will turn their backs on these kids in a hurry. The official story will be that they acted alone, their superiors are in no way to blame, all the fault lies with them. Like I said, I hope I'm wrong.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

And we should all give them the benefit of the doubt, pending a thorough investigation of their actions. After all, under our legal system, "innocent until proven guilty" is supposed to be the rule. One important question is the extent to which they were either a) following orders or b) placed in an impossible situation by their superiors or c) improperly prepared for the situation they found themselves in.

I'm not prepared to judge them from all the way over here. Who knows how I would act in their situation? I hope that I would always do the moral and correct thing, but fear and anger can be powerful, confusing emotions.

The sad thing? My guess is that the Bush administration will quickly make scapegoats of these kids. I hope I'm wrong, but mark my words--the establishment will turn their backs on these kids in a hurry. The official story will be that they acted alone, their superiors are in no way to blame, all the fault lies with them. Like I said, I hope I'm wrong.

I don't think you're wrong. I think you're dead right.

The military will never take responsibility for what happened. It hows things work.

Very good post, btw. I'm gaining more and more respect for you daily.

[pope04]

Yet another good story from the L.A. times:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...ck=1&cset=true

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Azure

Those Marines. Until they are "proven" guilty, I'll continue giving them the benefit of the doubt.

If you knew some of the members in the US Military, been around them, grew up on military bases your whole life and seen your brothers come back from Iraq and then go right back, you'd understand why I give them the benefit of the doubt.

I like how you say this but are in support of the Patriot Act which flies directly in the face of that.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I like how you say this but are in support of the Patriot Act which flies directly in the face of that.

I know. Thats the one issue of the Patriot Act that gets me more then anything. "Innocent until proven guilty."

If we expect the civilians to live by that law, as well as the military, all those prisoners captured by the US Military should be under that law as well.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Azure

I know. Thats the one issue of the Patriot Act that gets me more then anything. "Innocent until proven guilty."

If we expect the civilians to live by that law, as well as the military, all those prisoners captured by the US Military should be under that law as well.

Especially the ones at Gitmo. The latest about that is them finding kids as young as 14 being put there without any kind of trial or legal representation.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Especially the ones at Gitmo. The latest about that is them finding kids as young as 14 being put there without any kind of trial or legal representation.

Its not "only" limited to Gitmo. I'm sure there are a lot of other places where prisoners are being held without a fair trial, something every human being deserves.

Turn that argument around though; you could probably say 50% of the people in Gitmo and other places "are" terrorists. Its just the "need to know" basis that isn't being dealt with.

[FlamesAddiction]

Here's an interesting BBC report on U.S. Iraq War Veterans who are now anti-war.

It's 22 minutes long, but at around the 13th minute it begins to describe how groupthought takes over. At around the 18th minute, one veteran describes how some soldiers would carry shovels around with them so that they could shoot whoever they wanted and plant a shovel next to the body to make it look like the person was digging an IED. He also describes how they would laugh and cheer as their Iraqi counter-parts would abuse civilians.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/u...wm_4859458.stm

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Now there is another one.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/5039420.stm

The BBC has uncovered new video evidence that US forces may have been responsible for the deliberate killing of 11 innocent Iraqi civilians.

And maybe another:

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsAr...-RelatedNews-3

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

And maybe another:

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsAr...-RelatedNews-3

It might officially be time to cut and run.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

^^
I don't really see how cutting and running is an option. This doesn't make things any easier on the rest of the troops though, that's for sure.

At this stage it sounds like there's a little bit of "he said, she said" going on--and it may be that part of the problem is telling the difference between "insurgent" and "civilian." (a problem they had in Vietnam too, btw) But if this is happening repeatedly, it has to be at some level a failure of leadership.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

At this stage it sounds like there's a little bit of "he said, she said" going on--and it may be that part of the problem is telling the difference between "insurgent" and "civilian." (a problem they had in Vietnam too, btw) But if this is happening repeatedly, it has to be at some level a failure of leadership.

This is especially a problem when (if) the civilians are aiding the insurgents. If you're a US soldier, it probably makes sense to you that the people that support the insurgents (guys who kill your buddies) are as much the 'enemy' as the fighters they supply. Happened a lot in Vietnam, though the Vietnamese resistance movement was much more unified and cohesive than the Iraqi one, as I see it, and the 'civilians' there were often very close to the insurgents.