Mayor Dave steals our money so he can harrass bums, hobos, and other transients!

[V]

Originally Posted by Scorponok

Yes, why don't we resort to personal insults and petty name-calling when we can no longer win the argument?

No petty insults from me. I regard myself the same way. Who, outside of my loved ones would miss me if I was gone? No one. You're the same way, unless you have some kind of lofty opinion of who you are and what your contributions really mean.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Consider this.

In order to get an apartment in this city you have to have:

$500 damage deposit (conservative estimate)
$1000 for first and last month's rent

So even if you have a job that you can afford to get an apartment you still have to come up with $1500 extra to get it. Often this is what prevents many from getting off the street. They can't ever save that $1500.

True, but there are options.

Long story short but I once ran into an old friend of a friend who was living on the street. I had him come back home with me; did up a resume (trust me, it wasn't very impressive) and we hit the pavement; giving my number as a contact number. Next day he got called for a job pumping gas.

Then we went apartment shopping and found a cheap one for $350 a month that included electricity. (This was Winnipeg in the mid-90's) We went to Social Assistance with this info, and they cut him a cheque that day for $850- $700 for the apartment (sec deposit and 1st month; the most a place can charge) and $150 for work clothes. We managed to get him work clothes for $75 from thrift stores, and spent the rest on a couple of pots, dishes, and some basic food.

Two week later we asked his boss to withhold 1/2 of what his rent was every month and cut a seperate cheque payable to the landlord. Last I heard a year later he was still working and living in that apartment.

I know the economics in Calgary are different than Winnipeg 10 years ago, but the point is there are agencies willing to help; but they can only help those who want to be helped.

As others have said; I have worked downtown for 6 years now, and it's the same people every day begging for change.

[Scorponok]

Originally Posted by Dominicwasalreadytaken

No petty insults from me. I regard myself the same way. Who, outside of my loved ones would miss me if I was gone? No one. You're the same way, unless you have some kind of lofty opinion of who you are and what your contributions really mean.

Your idea that I contribute nothing to society is also laughable and false. I've held a job pretty much the day after I was legally able to work in Alberta (14 years old) and have been working ever since.

I just don't subscribe to the notion that people on the streets are "victims" as apologists like you are so eager to point out. A lot of them choose to be parasites.

[V]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

The answer is still yes, although to varying degrees.

Not to mention, you have to actually try the substances in order to become addicted. There are normal people in life who are probably pre-disposed to such conditions, but have never used cocaine so who knows what would have happened.

Just like people can be pre-disposed to depression and other mental diseases.

Sounds a little too fatalistic to me. I know I'm only arguing one slice of a larger issue, but I just can't agree with what you're saying. People born under 'normal circumstances' leading 'normal lives' who find them addicted to lifestyle-altering chemicals do not follow the path that they follow just because of a dumb stroke of luck. You know what I attribute these problems to? Arrogance or apathy. These people know what crack can do to you. Yet they think they can experiment with it and remain unscathed. They're 'better' than those suckers that couldn't handle it. Either that, or they just don't care what their choices may lead to.

[V]

Originally Posted by Scorponok

Your idea that I contribute nothing to society is also laughable and false. I've held a job pretty much the day after I was legally able to work in Alberta (14 years old) and have been working ever since.

So? Who cares? Would my life, or the lives of a million Calgarians be altered in any way by your passing? Nope. Not one iota. Laugh all you want, I suppose.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Thats what happens when the left leaning proponants of utopian society cannot validate there arguements.

[Scorponok]

Originally Posted by Dominicwasalreadytaken

So? Who cares? Would my life, or the lives of a million Calgarians be altered in any way by your passing? Nope. Not one iota. Laugh all you want, I suppose.

We were talking about homeless people and the solutions to getting rid of them, or at least keeping them out of sight, not a philisophical argument as to who will be remembered after they die. Please do try to keep up.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Dominicwasalreadytaken

Sounds a little too fatalistic to me. I know I'm only arguing one slice of a larger issue, but I just can't agree with what you're saying. People born under 'normal circumstances' leading 'normal lives' who find them addicted to lifestyle-altering chemicals do not follow the path that they follow just because of a dumb stroke of luck. You know what I attribute these problems to? Arrogance or apathy. These people know what crack can do to you. Yet they think they can experiment with it and remain unscathed. They're 'better' than those suckers that couldn't handle it. Either that, or they just don't care what their choices may lead to.

It isn't quite as clear cut as that, but yes, there is an element of fatalism to it. Especially when it comes to mental disorders, they can be set off by a variety of factors in life and people have literally no control over it. Some people can be set off by a series of tramatic events in life and never look back.

Not to mention, these things are very rare. It is a pretty difficult thing to explain because each person has their own seperate set of circumstances.

I'm sure you could find a person whose life started spiraling out of control after he/she was raped - because they were pre dispositioned to depression they may have turned to illegal substances.

But as Jiri said, without a doubt it is a fact that the majority of people on the streets have a mental disorder.

[V]

Hey, you were the one coming up with a valuation system for individual people. I'm just helping you out. You are as insignificant as the homeless. You are not better than them. Not worse than them. You are equally insignificant.

[Scorponok]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Thats what happens when the left leaning proponants of utopian society cannot validate there arguements.

Agreed. See the way they use emotionalism and ad-hominum attacks as a crutch for their hollow arguments? It's a common tactic of the left.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Scorponok

Agreed. See the way they use emotionalism and ad-hominum attacks as a crutch for their hollow arguments? It's a common tactic of the left.

Oh so now this is a left-right argument? When did that happen?

[jolinar of malkshor]

These bums can do something to contribute to society. Even the mentaly challenged work at McDonalds. If this is possible its possible for these bums to find some kind of employment. And if they cant find employment for what ever reason, why are they not volunteering. Its not like they dont have some spare time.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

These bums can do something to contribute to society. Even the mentaly challenged work at McDonalds. If this is possible its possible for these bums to find some kind of employment. And if they cant find employment for what ever reason, why are they not volunteering. Its not like they dont have some spare time.

Again.

A lot of homeless folks do have a jobs. But a job at McDonalds isn't going to get you an apartment in Calgary.

[Julio]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Again.

A lot of homeless folks do have a jobs. But a job at McDonalds isn't going to get you an apartment in Calgary.

Very true...but a job at McD's is several steps up from begging downtown, which is where this thread started.
I live in Bankview, and am up and down 17th almost every day, in car, bike or on foot. The amount of people who are there begging, wheather it is with a cap on the sidewalk or walking through cars @ 17th and 14th has exploded in the past few years.
I have no trouble with people selling Straight Talk, or people who are homeless and working. But what makes me mad is when I actually tell people where they can get jobs (told probably 10 people to go work @ the Dome from Christmas on, a couple to their credit did), and they blow me off because they don't want to be 'part of the system'.

[FacePaint]

I don't think you'll find anyone here that says people that CHOOSE not to work and just sit on the side of the road begging for money, although perfectly healthy, are great people that are just down on their luck. But many individuals living in shelters are transiant individuals that hear about the job market in Calgary, leave their life in another province and need somewhere to stay till they find work and be productive.

I guess what I'm wondering is who are the people that are 'leeching' off society, are scum etc...

[RougeUnderoos]

Wow. It's kind of confusing. The "better" people around here are sure coming off as "bad" people.

Hey CalgaryFlames, I think you need to go back to school. Somewhere along the line most educated people learned that more money does not = better person. And someone who would take pride in being "better" than someone else, particularly the most disadvantaged people in society, is inherently not a better person than anyone.

[Scorponok]

Originally Posted by Dominicwasalreadytaken

Hey, you were the one coming up with a valuation system for individual people. I'm just helping you out. You are as insignificant as the homeless. You are not better than them. Not worse than them. You are equally insignificant.

Unfortunately for you, repeating something over and over on this message board does not make it true.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by FacePaint

I don't think you'll find anyone here that says people that CHOOSE not to work and just sit on the side of the road begging for money, although perfectly healthy, are great people that are just down on their luck. But many individuals living in shelters are transiant individuals that hear about the job market in Calgary, leave their life in another province and need somewhere to stay till they find work and be productive.

I guess what I'm wondering is who are the people that are 'leeching' off society, are scum etc...

There was a thread a few weeks back started by a guy in the "I work but I'm staying in the shelter" position. He was looking for better work and a place to of his own. I'm not sure if any of the "better" people gave him any positive advice but I do know one "better" person told him to leave the city.

[V]

Then please enlighten me. What makes you so much more valuable than them? You have a job? Is that really all there is to it? That's really all you've mentioned so far, and even you should be able to see how shallow that looks.

You've already shown that you have an arrogant murderous heart. I'll take lazy over that any day of the week.

[Calgary Flames]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Wow. It's kind of confusing. The "better" people around here are sure coming off as "bad" people.

Hey CalgaryFlames, I think you need to go back to school. Somewhere along the line most educated people learned that more money does not = better person. And someone who would take pride in being "better" than someone else, particularly the most disadvantaged people in society, is inherently not a better person than anyone.

I'm not just talking about money... I could take you to school on the **** i've seen, and dealt with in my family and you'd truly wonder how I even got past the 9th grade. Not due to not having the smarts but due to outside distractions that could've easily led many kids to the street.

My family and I are succesfull by overcoming a hell of alot of obstacles, most of which are no different than those these street people had to go through.

I have absolutely ZERO sympathy for homeless people. They are where they are because of THEMSELVES and nothing else. How is it arrogant that i'm proud of fighting through the adversity i've faced in life??

I will not give a single penny to a homeless person to further their own self pity. If you've been dealt a ****ty hand, and are a good person inside I'll buy you a coffee, sandwich, whatever to help make your day easier. But these street BUMS who are just the scum of the earth asking for $2 at the train platforms so they can "Go to the hospital" are full of ****... I missed my train on purpose to see if the guy even got on the train... nope he was still on the platform asking more people for money with the same old story... They're hustling the good people of this city and taking them for granted.

There are Homeless, and there are Bums. Bums aren't getting anything from me.