Iraq at civil war!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mbrown]

"It was fantastic, but it was not democracy in action. People had no idea what they were voting for. People voted the way their imam told them to vote. To have a functioning democracy the people voting must understand the issues and have an idea of the ramifications of the vote they cast. Without this knowledge, with outside interference and with the influence of others with personal motivations, the vote is irrelevant. Democracy does not function with interference. Add in the lack of control mechanisms and what took place in Iraq is not democracy in an shape or form. It was a sham that was orchestrated to make the rest of the world believe that democracy could indeed could work. As has been pointed out by the President himself, the civil war proves that democracy did not indeed take place and that the exercise has been an utter failure"

So you know more than the Un and all the independant agencies who verified the reults do ya? Wow! I had no idea who I was dealing with!
You must have had a camera behind the voting booth. You're a sly one Lanny!

[mbrown]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

That's what I thought.

clever. They had a vote did they now? The vote was a way higher turnout than anyone thought possible.

There's some proof that some things are working.

[mbrown]

And why is the burden of proof on me? Some said it's not working. I say give it a chance and I am optimistic that it will and I need 'proof'?

haha

ok guys,

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by mbrown

I remembered death sentence, but 27 years? in 2003? play again Lanny:

"
It was a grim year for press freedom in Cuba. A total of 27 journalists were arrested and sentenced to long prison terms in the course of a crackdown on dissent. Thereafter, they were held in conditions which their families described as inhumane. Fellow journalists who remained at large ran the risk of suffering the same fate.
In Cuba, 2003 will go down in history as a black year for press freedom and civil liberties in general. President Fidel Castro launched an unprecedented wave of arrests on 18 March, on the eve of the US attack on Iraq, jailing a total of 75 dissidents. They included human rights activists, trade unionists and peaceful political campaigners, as well as 27 independent journalists.
The journalists were given sentences ranging from 14 to 27 years in prison in summary trials that denied them the right of defence. They were convicted under Law 88 or article 91 of the criminal code. Law 88 protects Cuba’s "independence and economy." It punishes "subversive activities" that further US "imperialist interests." This includes working for foreign news media. Article 91 punishes "actions against Cuba’s independence and territorial integrity."
For the most part, the journalists were accused of collaborating with the United States by writing articles that gave a different view of Cuba from that served up in the official press. Their reports were usually about the (not officially recognised) opposition, human rights violations or Cuban daily life. They were also accused of visiting the US interests section (the substitute for an embassy), which President Castro has branded as the "headquarters of domestic counter-revolution" although he has never closed it down.
The prosecution witnesses included known independent journalists Nestor Baguer and Manuel David Orrio who turned out to agents of the Directorate for State Security (the political police) who had been infiltrated into the independent press. "Subversive material" confiscated during extensive searches of the journalists homes - typewriters, computers, paper, pens and tape-recorders - was produced in evidence.
Shortly after being convicted at the start of April, the journalists and all the other detained dissidents were sent to prisons often hundreds of kilometres from their homes. Forced to undertake long and expensive journeys in order to visit them, their families complained of "a second sentence." The prisoners received the harshest treatment provided by Cuba’s prisons and were allowed only one family visit every three months (instead of every three weeks).
Several staged hunger strikes in protest against the conditions : the lack of hygiene (cells infested by rats and cockroaches), the lack of medical care, the revolting food, the lack of access to water and the interception of their mail. Some, such as Oscar Espinosa Chepe, were seriously ill. Their treatment was "in accordance with the Revolution’s humanistic ethics," said Cuba’s ambassador to Paris. In a show of protest, the wives of some 30 dissidents silently marched each Sunday outside Saint Rita’s church in Havana, dressed in black or white. They were often threatened because of this.
The March 2003 crackdown was surprising for both its scale and timing. Cuba seemed to be on the point of benefiting from the Cotonou Accords, under which 77 African, Caribbean and Pacific countries, the so-called ACP Group, receive economic aid and preferential trade relations with the European Union. The crackdown came at a moment when a small but growing sector of the population was refusing to carry on living in fear. They were just a handful 10 years ago. Now there are now several hundred active dissidents throughout the country."

Now who is the person who doesn';t know what they are talking about.

You know, all I need to know is that the same person who says democracy will never work in Iraq thinks Cuba is fien as it is and that the US is tyrannical. That tells me all I need to know.

Thanks for playing. let me know when you live on the same planet and have a little education behind your blatherings.

You're joke junior. You say one thing, then change your story. You said Castro had killed reporters. I proved you wrong, yet again.

I would also like to know where this link came from. I've looked through Human Rights Watch and Amnestry International's sites and see nothing on these incidents. Intertestingly enough Prsident Carter visited Cuba in 2003 (after these arrests) and gave a speech on May 14th in regards to Cuba's Human rights record, and nothing was said about these incidents. No one is saying Cuba is a model of freedoms, as it is not (in fact, voted as one of the top 10 worst places to be a reporter), but to fabricate the communist regime there as tis blood thirsty organization bent on supression of basic human rights is bogus. Castros regime has been subjected to 40+ years of a US lead embargo of that nation, preventing many of the things we take for granted getting to the island nation. Is there any doubt why Castro continues to be a hardline communist when the many things that the rest of the world get to enjoy never make it to his country because of political action that took place in 1963? Get real. The United States is as much to blame for the situation in Cuba as Castro. The US embargo makes it impossible for Cubans to do anything but exist under conditions which they are forced to live.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by mbrown

So you know more than the Un and all the independant agencies who verified the reults do ya? Wow! I had no idea who I was dealing with!
You must have had a camera behind the voting booth. You're a sly one Lanny!

It's like talking to a brick wall. You have no clue what you are talking about. How can democracy work when the people have no idea what they are voting on? When there is no campaigning, no press to disemminate information, nothing more than the religious leaders telling people how to vote, how is that democracy? If people do not have the information to make an informed voting decision it nullifies the result. Just because you vote does not make it democratic. The fact that you do not appear to understand this says all that needs to be said. You don't understand the subject matter and should not be trying to discuss it. There is more to democracy than getting purple ink on a finger. Learn what it takes to form a democracy before you try telling someone how great it is working in a country that is a complete disaster (according to the country's President).

[mbrown]

Right.. it's the states' fault Cuba is communist. well that's neat.
The article is from 'Reporters Sans Frontiers'.

fyi - just because you haven't heard of something, doesn't make it untrue.
I tire of your juveile rantings and immature grasp of geopolitics.
Now you're bringing up Carter!

LOL

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by mbrown

Right.. it's the states' fault Cuba is communist. well that's neat.
The article is from 'Reporters Sans Frontiers'.

fyi - just because you haven't heard of something, doesn't make it untrue.
I tire of your juveile rantings and immature grasp of geopolitics.
Now you're bringing up Carter!

LOL

Immature grasp? Look in the mirror junior. Christ, I'm running circles around you. You throw out something, and I knock it out of the park. You said Castro had KILLED reporters, and I proved that to be bull****. You said Castro has imprisoned people in a given year, and showed that a visiting past President of the United States, and a human rights expert, knew nothing of what you were talking about. As well, the two leading repositories for this information could not cooberate your post and you could not produce a ink to support it. What more do you want?

Oh, and back to the Iraqi elections, here's some links that will show democracy isn't working in that nation.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/122105B.shtml

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2006/sc8661.doc.htm (this one is from the UN itself)

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=10310

All talk of forgeries, fraud and intimidation during the election. Ah yes, democracy in action.

Back to you Plato.

[RedHot25]

Interesting link there (wait a sec, no link, I had to hunt around myself) mbrown. Yup, it does come from Reporters sans frontieres - http://www.rsf.org/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=367 (I'm guessing thats the link you got it from).

HOWEVER, and not saying yay or nay to this, right or wrong, BUT...you also failed to note this about your source:

"Why We Take So Much Interest In Cuba"
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=14352


Reporters Without Borders has repeatedly been accused of bias against Cuba.

....

The only grants we receive from US sources come from the Center for a Free Cuba and the National Endowment for Democracy (NED).
....

Several articles, for example, have said Reporters Without Borders paid French actress Catherine Deneuve 50,000 euros to attend an event dedicated to press freedom in Cuba. It is true Deneuve agreed to take part. But she did it because she wanted to. She was not paid a cent by our organisation. She has on the other hand acknowledged being paid 50,000 euros to attend a ceremony to launch the Algerian TV station Khalifa TV. But that had nothing to do with Reporters Without Borders or Cuba.

And if the site itself isn't enough, then from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reporters_Without_Borders

In its agenda to address press freedom and freedom of expression world-wide, RWB has paid little attention in its publications to issues relating to copyright protection. RWB itself has in the past faced legal challenges for infringing upon copyright issues even in its home country of France.

Some have questioned RWB's impartiality due to a significant amount of funding coming directly or indirectly from US and French government bodies

In addition to its other sources of funding, RWB receives free publicity from Saatchi and Saatchi, a member of the world's fourth-largest marketing and public relations conglomerate, Publicis Groupe. It has been noted that a major Publicis client is Bacardi which has been at the forefront of financing anti-Castro groups, and whose 2001 advertising budget was just under $50 million.
Also, check out the external links at the bottom.
Not saying these accusations are right or wrong, but when the site you cited takes so much time to defending itself......

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

That's what I thought.

He has a history of that.

[mbrown]

I post a link from Reporters' With Out Borders and he posts a link from Aljazeera for gawd's sake?

OMG. I fear for the next generation.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by mbrown

I post a link from Reporters' With Out Borders and he posts a link from Aljazeera for gawd's sake?

OMG. I fear for the next generation.

What about my post....?

[mbrown]

So find me proof that Castro didn't jail those reporters.
some for 27 years, and you people defend him?
And Lanny uses al-Jazeera as a source?

HAHA my oh my. The UN sanctioned the vote people. it was legitimate. Alot of Sunni's boycotted and that was bad, but it was a successfull vote by any credible source.

Not to mention the cuban government said that they did this themselves..

but right, I;m sure it's reporters without borders making it up because they are biased...

READ AND LEARN

"

HAVANA (AP)--Cuba's communist-run government announced it had rounded up several dozen opponents and slapped new restrictions on U.S. diplomats' movements as already bad relations between the two countries worsened.
An official statement read on state television's regular evening news program said Cuba's actions were the result of "the shameful and repeated attitude by the chief of Washington's diplomatic mission in Havana, James Cason, to foment the internal counterrevolution."
Offices at the U.S. Interests Section were closed late Tuesday and attempts to reach American diplomats here for comment were unsuccessful. The U.S. State Department last week had reported the travel restrictions on its diplomats in Havana, but the Cuban government did not confirm the new measures until Tuesday.
Havana's actions are just the latest in an increasingly ugly exchange of barbs between the two governments, which have had no regular diplomatic relations for more than four decades.
Veteran human rights activist Elizardo Sanchez said by telephone late Tuesday he had confirmed the detentions of at least 10 dissidents and was working to confirm reports of another 20 or so picked up by state security agents.
"No nation, no matter how powerful, has the right to organize, finance and serve as a central barracks for subverting the constitutional order and violating the law by conspiring, threatening security and destroying the independence of another country," said the Cuban government statement,
Havana in recent weeks has become increasingly incensed with Cason, who last month made a high-profile visit to a meeting of dissidents and spoke with international journalists gathered there. Since arriving here about six months ago, Cason has met with opposition members around the island and last week allowed a group of dissident journalists to use his official residence for a meeting.
Cason has said he is merely trying to promote democracy and human rights in the Caribbean nation. "The Cuban government is afraid: afraid of freedom of conscience, afraid of freedom of expression, afraid of human rights," Cason told journalists during last month's meeting with the opposition. "

[mbrown]

Another link:

http://ourlatinamerica.blogspot.com/...jailer-of.html

[mbrown]

Originally Posted by RedHot25

What about my post....?

What about it? The cuban government announced the round ups themselves!
Are they lying too?

[mbrown]

It's quite clear as we get more and more off topic here that political leanings are tending people to HOPE that democracy won't work in Iraq. Maybe we won't, NONE OF US KNOW - but I sure hope it does and I am hopeful that it will.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by mbrown

I post a link from Reporters' With Out Borders and he posts a link from Aljazeera for gawd's sake?

OMG. I fear for the next generation.

Al Jazeera is a very reputable news bureau, especially in the middle and far east. Al Jazeera is doing their best to drag the Islamic media into the 21st century. The network is also preparing to being broadcasting in North America with a full time bureau based in New York with reporters continent wide. Al Jazeera presents both sides of the story and is hyper critical of what they report. From an international perspective, they present a much more objective picture of what is going on than the North American media, which is sanitized and manipulated by both the corporate and political leanings of ownership. They are very much like BBC and have the same level of respect from international audiences.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by mbrown

It's quite clear as we get more and more off topic here that political leanings are tending people to HOPE that democracy won't work in Iraq. Maybe we won't, NONE OF US KNOW - but I sure hope it does and I am hopeful that it will.

Political leaning my ass. The only thing that is showing is that you're some kind of nutbar who doesn't live in reality. You have the balls to point to call out Cuba for their "imprisonment" of what they viewed as threats to their national security, but you mention nothing of the thousands of detainees the United States have in custody after 9/11, both domestically and foreign. Interesting double standard.

As for HOPING democracy takes hold, I think we all hope that. But we also respect the rights of Iraqis to chart their own course and believe they don't need the involvement of the American government to chart that course. There is the difference. American democracy is broken and is NOT the model to be used in other countries. We recognize that, its time you woke up to that fact.

BTW... I'm still waiting for you to comment on all the issues I beat the **** you with. When are you going to teach us all about democracy? How did it work in Japan? How did it fail in Central and South America? Waiting for the "education" from you professor.

[mbrown]

take off eh

[mbrown]

There is no arguing with left wing wackos. I learned that loong ago.

[mbrown]

I have been trying to talk about Iraq. You want to talk about how reputable Al Jazeera is now and how biased NA media is in comparison. We will never find common ground if that is what you believe. No sense in continuing the conversation I was trying to have and the insult making that you are trying to have. I'm sure if I kept it up we'd hear all about the evils of capitalism and globalization. The moral equivelancy of a palestinian suicide bomber and an Israeli soldier. I have met your type before and not only is it fruitless to try and engage in an energized, thoughtful debate, it always generates into insults and I'm too busy to devote my time to that.

As you were soldier.