Do NOT practice Christianity in China..

[FlamesAddiction]

Nothing new here really.

I grew up in a small town in the corner of Northwestern Ontario, and even there, we had a few families who had escaped relgious persecution from China. China has been persecuting Christians for a long time.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I know, just pointing it out for those who are advocating the separation of church and state to resolve issues like this that sometimes it works backwards.

Well, depends on the country and culture. I think in Canada, we're modern enough that the tide has always been turning more and more secular as with most western countries but we're a very liberal place.

Separation of church and state has been constitutionally enshrined in the US since it's inception for hundreds of years and yet, they are still very pious as a whole and many parts are very politically active in that agenda so it doesn't neccessarily work.

Nonetheless, you're right, that it does work backwards. But the problem is that it usually takes hundreds of years.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Well, it you believe might makes right, I guess you win. Personally I hold man to higher standards, such as truth, justice, equality and freedom to name a few.

What China is doing is an affront to freedom. I'm not saying that religion is stain free either, just that both are often wrong.

The UN declaration was written by a Canadian (or a Frenchman), and you don't know how much trouble they had writing it. Because they were trying to find worldwide precedents for human rights and culture that avoided Western sources (which were all Christian or Greek) and it turns out there's really no such thing in Eastern cultures like China.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Cheese

I said...how on earth do you know they "Believe" and not hope? I said...maybe you have to be there and live there to really know what they feel. I think theist dogma is pretty much all hope considering theres no proof of anything they preach.

If you say Tranny is just speculating because he isn't in China then you are speculating because you aren't religious and have never knew what faith without proof means - thusly it just means stupidity to you. "maybe you have to be there and live there to really know what they feel".

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

If you say Tranny is just speculating because he isn't in China then you are speculating because you aren't religious and have never knew what faith without proof means - thusly it just means stupidity to you. "maybe you have to be there and live there to really know what they feel".

well IF youve ever read any previous threads youd know that what you say is 100% false. So now what?

[SweetDoc]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Ive never hidden behind the fact I am a true blue Atheist, others have a problem with my choice. I do have issues with people lying....in any way shape or form.

How is someone preaching religion lying? It can't be disproven with anymore tangible fact than it can be proven. The odds of the eveolution theory producing a planet with simple life, let alone a dynamic system like ours, are just as low as the creationalist theory. By condoning the right a country has to oppress its people by not giving them the freedom of belief, would be the same as Canada not giving you the right to be an Athiest. It's obvious you take pleasure knowing people in certain countries are not allowed to have their faith. I accept the fact you are Athiest, but don't argue the fact people everywhere in the world should have the right to the opposite. Are you going to tell us next that Hitler was using fair judgment not allowing Jews to practice their faith ?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by SweetDoc

The odds of the eveolution theory producing a planet with simple life, let alone a dynamic system like ours, are just as low as the creationalist theory.

That's just not true.

But I agree with the other stuff. The government's job isn't to tell us what to believe. China is a nasty dictatorship and I don't think any of us should be justifying the things they do.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by SweetDoc

How is someone preaching religion lying? It can't be disproven with anymore tangible fact than it can be proven. The odds of the eveolution theory producing a planet with simple life, let alone a dynamic system like ours, are just as low as the creationalist theory. By condoning the right a country has to oppress its people by not giving them the freedom of belief, would be the same as Canada not giving you the right to be an Athiest. It's obvious you take pleasure knowing people in certain countries are not allowed to have their faith. I accept the fact you are Athiest, but don't argue the fact people everywhere in the world should have the right to the opposite. Are you going to tell us next that Hitler was using fair judgment not allowing Jews to practice their faith ?

Well they are lying because they are espousing everything as an absolute truth...and they have absolutley zero evidence of a man named Jesus. Again...these discussions have been bandied about ad nauseum...I suggest you go back and dig a few of the past posts up. The Creationist theory is simply a bunch of BS.
What I am saying is ...believe what you want...but dont preach lies to people. Whats that got to do with Atheists for crap sakes? Are you suggesting Im lying to you? If so...prove it? When was the last time an Atheist knocked on your door at 10am on a Sunday with bible in hand? Pleasure about people not being able to have faith? What absolute trash. Ive never said that once. Dont read things into what I say and then suggest something Im not. All I have said "IN THIS CASE" is that China as a country has its rules and laws...it has every right to make them and defend them...whether I agree or not! Christians tend to believe that their way is the only way and go to great pains to get as many people buying into their crap as possible.
I have also said MANY times that I dont agree that any political party with ties to ANY religion, whether its Muslim, Christian or Boogeymen, should be allowed to control countries or regions. I espouse the total and complete separation of religion and politics.
Ill ignore your Hitler comment because I think your comment was ill prepared.

[SweetDoc]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Well they are lying because they are espousing everything as an absolute truth...and they have absolutley zero evidence of a man named Jesus. Again...these discussions have been bandied about ad nauseum...I suggest you go back and dig a few of the past posts up. The Creationist theory is simply a bunch of BS.
What I am saying is ...believe what you want...but dont preach lies to people. Whats that got to do with Atheists for crap sakes? Are you suggesting Im lying to you? If so...prove it? When was the last time an Atheist knocked on your door at 10am on a Sunday with bible in hand? Pleasure about people not being able to have faith? What absolute trash. Ive never said that once. Dont read things into what I say and then suggest something Im not. All I have said "IN THIS CASE" is that China as a country has its rules and laws...it has every right to make them and defend them...whether I agree or not! Christians tend to believe that their way is the only way and go to great pains to get as many people buying into their crap as possible.
I have also said MANY times that I dont agree that any political party with ties to ANY religion, whether its Muslim, Christian or Boogeymen, should be allowed to control countries or regions. I espouse the total and complete separation of religion and politics.
Ill ignore your Hitler comment because I think your comment was ill prepared.

Everyone on this planet should have the right to personal beliefs or no beliefs at all whether it be fact, fiction, or otherwise. Let it go, it's never right to force people into not being allowed religion, just the same as it is to force people to have religion. And what you are doing right now is preaching that religion doesn't exist, saying it's crap, that it's a lie. No one is attacking you but you sure are attacking others who do not share your view. The main point here isn't whether or not religion is fact, it's that people should have the right to believe it as fact if they want to. Any system who doesn't let peple have a personal faith, is a system based on control. Which seems to be what you hate so much in the first place.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by SweetDoc

Everyone on this planet should have the right to personal beliefs or no beliefs at all whether it be fact, fiction, or otherwise. Let it go, it's never right to force people into not being allowed religion, just the same as it is to force people to have religion. And what you are doing right now is preaching that religion doesn't exist, saying it's crap, that it's a lie. No one is attacking you but you sure are attacking others who do not share your view. The main point here isn't whether or not religion is fact, it's that people should have the right to believe it as fact if they want to. Any system who doesn't let peple have a personal faith, is a system based on control. Which seems to be what you hate so much in the first place.

you didnt read what I said...I said...believe anything you want...believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all I care....just dont preach it as a fact...dont mix it with politics and dont teach our kids lies. Put it in the same place with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny...in fantasyland!

[sebbie]

When was the last time an Atheist knocked on your door at 10am on a Sunday with bible in hand?


never but they keep interupting my evening news telling me what to eat and what pills to take so i dont die . i find that to be pushing there beliefs on me and as a hypochodraic it affects my life negatively. bring on the cattle prods!

[FlamesFanInEdm]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

That's just not true.

But I agree with the other stuff. The government's job isn't to tell us what to believe. China is a nasty dictatorship and I don't think any of us should be justifying the things they do.

I dont see how that is not true, wouldnt mind an explanation, but I do agree with the fact that China has no right to regulate religion. Government exists to provide order, not to forcibly make you follow what the rulers think is right.
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[SweetDoc]

Originally Posted by Cheese

you didnt read what I said...I said...believe anything you want...believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all I care....just dont preach it as a fact...dont mix it with politics and dont teach our kids lies. Put it in the same place with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny...in fantasyland!

Alright, so then people in China should be allowed to be Chistians if they want to. Good we're clear. People in China should not be treated any different for being Christian than we are here. Good we're clear. How they are being treated in China is unethical. So why are you arguing that the state has the right to tell people what they can or cannot believe in? Just because they make the law, doesn't mean the law is allowing people their personal rights and freedoms. Would you feel any different if the Chinese government was forcing the Athiests in their country to be Christian ? Because that would be forcing someone against their beliefs, which is exactly what is happening now.

[FlamesFanInEdm]

Originally Posted by Cheese

you didnt read what I said...I said...believe anything you want...believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all I care....just dont preach it as a fact...dont mix it with politics and dont teach our kids lies. Put it in the same place with Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny...in fantasyland!

Atheist - the word is derived from the Greek word "a" meaning "without" and "theos" meaning "God". Thus the definition of atheism is "without God" or the belief that no God actually exists. this is a blatant and positive denial of God's existence.

This is a quick definition I found on the internet of an Atheist. I dont understand how you can justify absolutely rejecting belief in a God and say that anyone who beleives in a God is living in 'fantasyland'. Just as there is no conclusive proof that there is a God, there is no conclusive proof that there is not a God. I for one have chosen to believe in a God and obviously you have chosen not to. However, to chose atheism because you cannot conclusively justify there being a God seems ignorant, there is no conclusive evidence that there is not a God. At the very least, one should maintain an agnostic point of view if they chose not to put their faith in a God. Atleast for me personally, choosing to base my life on random chance makes it seem rather trivial and meaningless.

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[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by sebbie

When was the last time an Atheist knocked on your door at 10am on a Sunday with bible in hand?

Well, in some countries, an atheist might come to your door and imprison or kill you, take your children to a state farm, or send you to a gulag just for practicing religon.

I prefer the bible guy, even if I have no interest in paying attention. It's also worth mentioning that many Christians (most that I know) don't believe in trying to convert people any more.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Cheese

well IF youve ever read any previous threads youd know that what you say is 100% false. So now what?

What is 100% false? I'm just quoting you directly and showing your double standard.

It's a double standard to argue someone is speculating and saying:

Originally Posted by cheese

maybe you have to be there and live there to really know what they feel

then claim yourself that you know for certain that those people are hoping and not believing when you yourself have not been there and lived there to really know what they feel (or believe). Aren't you yourself speculating then?

Many religions will claim that faith and experience is the precursor to belief. I'm not prosetylizing to you. But your preaching of atheism is almost as bad and narrow-minded and brutish as those of religious people.

[sebbie]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Well, in some countries, an atheist might come to your door and imprison or kill you, take your children to a state farm, or send you to a gulag just for practicing religon.

I prefer the bible guy, even if I have no interest in paying attention. It's also worth mentioning that many Christians (most that I know) don't believe in trying to convert people any more.

sorry guy, the original qoute was from cheese's post. i just screwed up the qoute and it reads like i posted it. and i agree with your post, growing up in a comunist country i rather have bible thumpers at my door then the police puttin me {or my family, which happened} in jail over my beliefs.

edit: to clarify my family was arested for having literature from the solidarity movement in poland, not religous beliefs.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanInEdm

I dont see how that is not true, wouldnt mind an explanation,

Well it depends what you mean by "creationalism". If it's literal creation from the bible, I don't believe that could possibly be true because the evidence suggests pretty clearly that it's not. So, it's not as "likely" other theories. as the other poster suggested it might be, to have been the origin of everything.

If he means something else by "creation", then that's a different story.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by FlamesFanInEdm

However, to chose atheism because you cannot conclusively justify there being a God seems ignorant, there is no conclusive evidence that there is not a God.

So just to be clear here, what you are saying is that it's ignorant to not believe in something you have no proof for?

If you say so. Others might say it's ignorant to believe in something just because you can't prove it doesn't exist. What else does this philosophy apply to? I can't prove Santa Claus doesn't exist. Am I ignorant because I don't believe in Santa Claus?

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

So just to be clear here, what you are saying is that it's ignorant to not believe in something you have no proof for?

If you say so. Others might say it's ignorant to believe in something just because you can't prove it doesn't exist. What else does this philosophy apply to? I can't prove Santa Claus doesn't exist. Am I ignorant because I don't believe in Santa Claus?

I think he's saying it's ignorant to completely rule something out when there's no evidence against it. Atheism is as ignorant as Theism because both absolutely claim something that can't be proven. Agnosticism is the only truely intelligent theology.