September 11th Thread

[Morko]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard+Sep 11 2004, 10:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mean Mr. Mustard @ Sep 11 2004, 10:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Wow.

Wow, wow, wow.

Unfreakingbelieveable.

That was the one that made me very upset. to be honest with you, one of the stupidest posts I have ever seen. Should the Jews just get over the Holocaust (not say 9/11 was as bad as the Holocaust) should the Russians get over their children being killed in hostage takings, should the Koreans get over their women being used as sex slaves in Japan during World War Two (the comfort women).

Attitudes like those are in my opinion and to quote you DFF "Unfreakingbelieveable" [/b][/quote]
Actually, everybody should try to "get over" the harm that has been done to them. I know it may sound incredibly naive to say this, but I believe in it still: when people of this world learn to forgive and forget - a great number of the conflicts will seize. History and nationalistic identity is dynamite in the hands of the right leaders. Right now I feel that the American government is playing this card. They are using dichotomies that are very dangerous and I cant see a good end to it. To me, the attack on the 11th of september was not an attack on the western civilaztion, it was an attack on humanity. And I find it sad that a lot the morals of our civilization that we hold so high has been blatantly disregarded when we hear about leaders saying that they're gonna "hunt their enemies out of their caves." That's back to the stoneage. Sorry, I'm rambling. The attack of three years ago was vicious, inhumane and an beyond any human reasoning. I feel for those who lost somebody, I just feel sad about the way world events have progressed after this tragedy.

And ps: Nobody seems to talk about what happened in Chile in 1973...

[peter12]

And I find it sad that a lot the morals of our civilization that we hold so high has been blatantly disregarded when we hear about leaders saying that they're gonna "hunt their enemies out of their caves." That's back to the stoneage. Sorry, I'm rambling. The attack of three years ago was vicious, inhumane and an beyond any human reasoning. I feel for those who lost somebody, I just feel sad about the way world events have progressed after this tragedy.

There is a little something called justice that should be taken into account. If Bin Ladin is in about a million pieces from one of those daisycutter bombs, than its all he deserves.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@Sep 11 2004, 07:34 AM
the World changed for the worse on Sept 11, in one day there was a mass murder of unprecidented proportions that didn't happen over days or months or years. It happened in hours.

Hiroshima.

Nagasaki.

Far, far worse attacks on civilians have occured...

Now, I do agree with you that the people who are saying "move on already" are being extremely cold. It has only been three years, and we are still feeling the after effects of it - The Iraq war, the BILLIONS of dollars spent on security for the Olympics, etc. Increased security and difficulty to get into America, cooler relations between Canada and the US as the result of Canada's decision not to take part in America's invasion of Iraq.

We are still feeling very tangible effects of this tragedy that the school massacre in Russia, the events in the Sudan and Yugoslavia cannot because this was right on our doorstep.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

September 11th is a special day for me. Its a day I sat on pins and needles to see if I had lost family in the attack (my father in-law was an investment banker who was routinely in the WTC and my brother in-law was the chief of a fire department who waited on the Jersey shore for the call into New York). It was also a few short months before I immigrated to the United States. The attacks reminded me what I was getting myself into as I moved to America.

There are many in the world that hate the United States. The September 11th attacks were a result of that hatred. When the news of those attacks hit the air waves it was as if Armstrong were about to step on the moon again. The world stopped and tuned into to watch the events unfold. As the towers came crashing down, and the stories of the selfless sacrafice of the individuals on the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania, the hatred toward the United States disappeared. Everyone then thought of aiding the country that had come to their aid so many times in the past. It brought the world together and a spirit of cooperation begun that was a huge step for mankind. The world was together in ridding the world of the scourage called terrorism. The United States could do no wrong and was granted a license to chase terrorism where it was hiding. It was a great time in the world and made me believe that the new mellennium was the Damning of Aquarius.

Alas that good will was flushed down the toilet through an unjust military action in Iraq. The American arrogance that had disolved after the attacks returned in spades, and with it the hatred for America. The international cooperative spirit was replaced with innuendo and accusations of wrong doing. The Age of Aquarius was a quick one. While hope is still there that mankind can return to the level of cooperative spirit that was there in 2001, soul searching must be done to do so. Arrogance must be put aside and tolerance of other cultures must be adopted. Whether that can be attained will be discovered in the near future I suspect.

September 11th is a day that showed us the worst that humans can do to each other. The days that immediately followed showed the best in mankind. Every September 11th I will think of those days that followed the attacks and hope that we can get back to that spirit of cooperation, and that we can move toward the humanistic ideals that the Age of Aquarius is supposed to hold for us.

[Calgary Flames]

Very, VERY Well said Lanny... quite possibly one of the best post's ever on CP.

[BlackArcher101]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard+Sep 11 2004, 06:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mean Mr. Mustard @ Sep 11 2004, 06:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Displaced Flames fan@Sep 11 2004, 10:32 PM
Wow, wow, wow.

Unfreakingbelieveable.

That was the one that made me very upset. to be honest with you, one of the stupidest posts I have ever seen. Should the Jews just get over the Holocaust (not say 9/11 was as bad as the Holocaust) should the Russians get over their children being killed in hostage takings, should the Koreans get over their women being used as sex slaves in Japan during World War Two (the comfort women).

Attitudes like those are in my opinion and to quote you DFF "Unfreakingbelieveable" [/b][/quote]
Well, I was avoiding this thread after people starting complaining about it taking a wrong turn, but hey, if you want to reply to my post I made 18 hours ago and keep the arguement alive, then so be it.
I had a whole list of arguements ready in my mind, but I've realized that it's not going to matter what I say, or what you reply with. Opinions won't be changed. All I've got to say is this.

I was in class when the first attack happened. When I heard something was up, I rushed home and turned on CNN. I did not move from that spot until 6 hours later. I was mortified of the happenings, I sat there with my hand over my gaping mouth staring at the screen just listening and watching. I felt helpless, shocked, dismayed, overwhelmed. There was no time for tears, I was too busy gathering all this information CNN was throwing at me. What was happening? How could it be happening? Holy crap.
This event touched me personally also, as I was currently studying for a career in the aeronautical field. The events on 9/11 have all but ruined the industry. What happened that day was horrific for the victims and their families, as for the American people also. I'm not arguing about that, it's true.

I think you have misconstrued the meaning of my post. I'm not telling people to "get over it". What I am mad at is how 9/11 is used now for excuses, for political campaigns.
Ex. I had a close family member pass away when I was young, and I will never get over it. However, I don't go telling people about it. I feel this whole 9/11 thing is being crammed into my brain. It's wherever you go, you just can't get away from it. I guess I'm just sick of it. It has turned to be more political than personal.

So if you guys who complain about this thread taking a wrong turn want to reply to this, go ahead. Just keep in mind you are aiding the process.

edit: Excellent post Lanny. Good analogy with Armstrong.

[Ozy_Flame]

CNN Link

This article goes to support Lanny's arguement, and I couldn't agree with him more. Lanny nailed the opinion of many.

However, one quote irked me.

"I thank God that He made us see such a day," said one online contributor who identified herself only as Umm Rafida. "Whenever I look to the picture of the tower while its collapsing, tears well in my eyes and I thank God."

So political accomplishment supercedes the value of human life? I understand the frustration in US foreign policy, but this is just as unjust as the US' war on terror. Talk about a double standard.

[Cowperson]

The 9/11 attack will be remembered as a significant event in the 21st Century.

For those of you attempting to minimize it, the simple assassination of Archduke Ferdinand in 1914, a relatively obscure event, reaped one of the cataclysmic whirlwinds of the last century.

You may want to remember it as a small event but measure it by its impact in the world.

On another note, some of you might remember this, published at Calgarypuck.com on the one year anniversary of the 9/11 attack, measuring how it played out on our messageboard.

http://www.calgarypuck.com/Charlton_091102.htm

Cowperson

[transplant99]

Well to TRY and keep this thread ON TOPIC... here is what they did in NY tonight.

Very cool.

[monty_]

Yes, horrible tragedies happen all around the world, but that doesn't downplay the severity of this horrible event. 3000 people died on 9/11 and they weren't soldiers or terrorists or anything. They were just regular, everyday people going to work or boarding a plane...

I think what makes September 11 stick out in so many people's minds was because in was totally and completely unexpected and there was nothing anybody could do about it. Hostage crisis', bombings and wars have all happened before, but never in history has a commercial 747 airplane been crashed purposely into a 110 floor office building in the largest metropolis in the world. That day was also documented on live tv all over the world. It caused chaos in a city of millions and the world has never been the same since.

[BlackArcher101]

After looking at this Memorial for the victims, it made me realize what an ass I sounded like and put the victims in my thoughts.

These people were normal human beings, like myself, yourself, your neighbour, my neighbour, your family. Brings everything back into perspective.

[transplant99]

Originally posted by BlackArcher101@Sep 12 2004, 12:03 AM
After looking at this Memorial for the victims, it made me realize what an ass I sounded like and put the victims in my thoughts.

These people were normal human beings, like myself, yourself, your neighbour, my neighbour, your family. Brings everything back into perspective.

Well said.

I remember reading something a while back that one single company lost 658 employees that day.....2/3 of their entire workforce.

One would have to think that the survivors from that company are feeling mighty blue today and likely feel guilt for surviving it.

I bet not a single day goes by they dont think about the horror of that day.

[JiriHrdina]

Thought I would post this link:

http://911digitalarchive.org/

A very good site with all sorts of 911 material. People's stories, photographs, artwork, etc. A lot of very moving stories and images here.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by BlackArcher101@Sep 12 2004, 04:03 AM
After looking at this Memorial for the victims, it made me realize what an ass I sounded like and put the victims in my thoughts.

These people were normal human beings, like myself, yourself, your neighbour, my neighbour, your family. Brings everything back into perspective.

How ironic can things be. This gentleman has a very interesting story that needs to be told.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/mem...ople/2142.html

This gentleman was an ex-special forces soldier who excelled in the NYFD. He broke his back on the job and had to learn to walk all over again. He went from barely being able to stand to re-qualifying to work for the toughest specialist unit (it slips my mind at the moment) in the NYFD in a year. Doctors were amazed at his recovery. He later went on to work as an Arson Investigator and on the 1993 WTC bombing. His interest in the events of the day had him being to collect intelligence about the terrorists (his army training was crucial in this regard) and layout connections. He tried, in vain, to get on the terrorism task force that the FBI and NYPD had developed and share his talents. As fate would have it he ended up dying in the WTC collapse. Only after his death did his wife find his collection of intelligence and just how much he knew about the attacks that would take place and claim his life. Ronnie Bucca was a man that had also warned authorities about the potential for these attacks and was not listened to. Its ironic that his legacy will be forever associated with a building that was the catalyst for an all consuming passion (investigation on terrorism) yet the whole story as he knew it will never be told the way he likely would have wished. I thought I would share this one person's story (its from one of those books that Tranny likes to beat me down for reading) as it would bring some depth to just one person on this memorial site. I'm sure there are another 3000 stories equally as interesting.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Sep 12 2004, 05:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Sep 12 2004, 05:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-BlackArcher101@Sep 12 2004, 04:03 AM
After looking at this Memorial for the victims, it made me realize what an ass I sounded like and put the victims in my thoughts.

These people were normal human beings, like myself, yourself, your neighbour, my neighbour, your family. Brings everything back into perspective.

How ironic can things be. This gentleman has a very interesting story that needs to be told.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/mem...ople/2142.html

This gentleman was an ex-special forces soldier who excelled in the NYFD. He broke his back on the job and had to learn to walk all over again. He went from barely being able to stand to re-qualifying to work for the toughest specialist unit (it slips my mind at the moment) in the NYFD in a year. Doctors were amazed at his recovery. He later went on to work as an Arson Investigator and on the 1993 WTC bombing. His interest in the events of the day had him being to collect intelligence about the terrorists (his army training was crucial in this regard) and layout connections. He tried, in vain, to get on the terrorism task force that the FBI and NYPD had developed and share his talents. As fate would have it he ended up dying in the WTC collapse. Only after his death did his wife find his collection of intelligence and just how much he knew about the attacks that would take place and claim his life. Ronnie Bucca was a man that had also warned authorities about the potential for these attacks and was not listened to. Its ironic that his legacy will be forever associated with a building that was the catalyst for an all consuming passion (investigation on terrorism) yet the whole story as he knew it will never be told the way he likely would have wished. I thought I would share this one person's story (its from one of those books that Tranny likes to beat me down for reading) as it would bring some depth to just one person on this memorial site. I'm sure there are another 3000 stories equally as interesting. [/b][/quote]
He knew the attack was coming but he was in the building anyway?

By the way, how much do you think the average Muslim "respects" your culture?

Cowperson

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Sep 12 2004, 02:27 PM

He knew the attack was coming but he was in the building anyway?

By the way, how much do you think the average Muslim "respects" your culture?

Cowperson

Gee Cow, the guy was a fireman and was called to respond to the WTC after the attack. What's he supposed to do? Politely decline and say I told you so, or do what he was trained to do and attempt to help those that were hurt in the attack? I have no idea what you are trying to get at, but it makes little sense.

How do Muslims respect my culture? I don't know. I've only interacted with a few of them, and to be honest I've never had a problem with them. The whole prayer thing creeps me out, but it creeps me out when Christians openly pray as well. I've never been told by a Muslim that I could not do anything when I was around them. I've never been told that this or that was wrong. I can't say the same about Christians though, but I've had a greater exposure to them than I have Muslims. There are wackos on both sides of the fence and I guess I've dealt with more Christians than I have Muslims so it only makes sense that I should run into a wacko Christian quicker than I should run into a wacko Muslim. I guess the bottom line is that I respect their customs and they respect mine. The same goes for Jews, Buddists, Hindus, etc. I don't know why a cultural custom must be a divider for so many people. It just doesn't make sense.

[longsuffering]

It is only right to remember the victims of the 9/11 attacks. More than 3000 innocent people died in a single event. The world mourns their loss.

I think what is frustrating to some people is that there so many other innocents who have died, be it in Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, Sudan, etc., who are not remembered at all. Many, or most, are not given a second thought.

I would ask the individuals who are so passionately denoucing others who bring up the pointless deaths of others who have died since Sept. 11 if they have 'remembered' the thousands of Iraqi civilians who have died in GWB's war on terror in Iraq? Do they set aside a moment on August 6 or August 9 to remember the victims of the only nuclear attacks in history? The point some are trying to make is that it is hypocritical to remember only some of the people whose lives were tragically wasted.

Maybe it is more appropriate to remember all the victims of terror and the war on terror today.

[longsuffering]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Sep 12 2004, 02:27 PM

By the way, how much do you think the average Muslim "respects" your culture?

Cowperson

This is outrageous even for you Cowperson. How can you make this kind of sweeping generalization?

My experience is that the average Muslim respects our culture.

I base that on my experience working in Muslim countries - Kyrgryzstan, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan & Yemen since 1996, so I'm guessing I'm a bit more qualifed than you to have an opinion.

Terrorists no more represent the feelings of the average Muslim than you represent the views of the average CalPucker.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Sep 12 2004, 03:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Sep 12 2004, 03:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson@Sep 12 2004, 02:27 PM

He knew the attack was coming but he was in the building anyway?

By the way, how much do you think the average Muslim "respects" your culture?

Cowperson

How do Muslims respect my culture? I don't know. I've only interacted with a few of them, and to be honest I've never had a problem with them. The whole prayer thing creeps me out, but it creeps me out when Christians openly pray as well. I've never been told by a Muslim that I could not do anything when I was around them. I've never been told that this or that was wrong. I can't say the same about Christians though, but I've had a greater exposure to them than I have Muslims. There are wackos on both sides of the fence and I guess I've dealt with more Christians than I have Muslims so it only makes sense that I should run into a wacko Christian quicker than I should run into a wacko Muslim. The same goes for Jews, Buddists, Hindus, etc. I don't know why a cultural custom must be a divider for so many people. It just doesn't make sense. [/b][/quote]
Gee Cow, the guy was a fireman and was called to respond to the WTC after the attack. What's he supposed to do? Politely decline and say I told you so, or do what he was trained to do and attempt to help those that were hurt in the attack? I have no idea what you are trying to get at, but it makes little sense.

Ah, I skimmed your post and link and didn't get that. Sorry.

I guess the bottom line is that I respect their customs and they respect mine.

They respect your culture? In general, taking the wacko element out? Can you really say that?

I'm not talking about Muslims living in Canada and America. I'm talking about the average Joe on an average Syrian, Saudi, Iranian, Afghani, Pakistani street.

I don't get the sense they respect your culture, a culture that allows religions of all faiths to be practiced openly, a culture that ostensibly doesn't care what a Jew might be doing any day of the week and a culture that doesn't paint unveiled woman as "whores" and chattel.

I don't think those points cover the wacko element. Those are common man points.

And, come to think of it, why would you respect such a culture? What has the Muslim culture of Arabia in the last 25 years done to earn your respect?

Just asking.

Cowperson

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by longsuffering+Sep 12 2004, 04:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (longsuffering @ Sep 12 2004, 04:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson@Sep 12 2004, 02:27 PM

By the way, how much do you think the average Muslim "respects" your culture?

Cowperson

This is outrageous even for you Cowperson. How can you make this kind of sweeping generalization?

My experience is that the average Muslim respects our culture.

I base that on my experience working in Muslim countries - Kyrgryzstan, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan & Yemen since 1996, so I'm guessing I'm a bit more qualifed than you to have an opinion.

Terrorists no more represent the feelings of the average Muslim than you represent the views of the average CalPucker. [/b][/quote]
Since when is a posed question a sweeping generalization?

Longsuffering..the king of extrapolation.