AC has stranded us in Athens … advice?

[woob]

I think for FAs the hourly wage is more important than the wage listed on a T4. The T4 doesn't tell the full story of time worked, etc.

I've seen $20-25/hour starting wage for AC flight attendants. That's considered high? So if 30 percent of their time is not paid (which might be high or low) are they not essentially making $14/hour starting wage?

[Ryan Coke]

To be clear, I’m not saying whether and how much of a raise flight attendants should get. I wish them the best in their negotiations. But I’m a fan of facts, and while aircrew don’t get paid directly for all hours related to any work (I know very well myself), that is a separate issue to total compensation.

The reality is there is a ton of propaganda being released from both the union and the companies side (as in any labour action). And be very skeptical of all of it. Both sides are trying to win the public relations battle, not trying to fairly educate people on the issues.

So is there an FA that made under 35k? Sure. But she is new, part time, or both.
The company could release info about how well they are paid, but they would also try to use edge cases to advance their propaganda agenda.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by ben voyonsdonc

A T4 from a flight attendant was posted on Reddit. They made less than $35K.

I do taxes for numerous Flight Attendants and none of them make anywhere close to that little, closer to double that unless they're extremely part time.

I'm not weighing in because I dont know all the circumstances but some people do the job for the perks.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Locke

I do taxes for numerous Flight Attendants and none of them make anywhere close to that little, closer to double that unless they're extremely part time.

I'm not weighing in because I dont know all the circumstances but some people do the job for the perks.

The beauty of many of the hourly jobs at WestJet was the flexibility of scheduling especially once you gained some seniority. Being able to structure your schedule was awesome. I could work as little as 24 hours per month or up to about 60 hours per week. I could trade shifts and go on vacation for a week or two without actually using vacation days. I worked with some retired folks who came in once or twice a week for some socializing and to put it in their minimum hours so that they could get flight benefits.

[Finger Cookin]

Fire the CEO and distribute his $415+/hour salary to the flight attendants. Then the company can still keep it's $2.2B in profit without losing so much money to the greedy flighty attendants.

[bagofpucks]

I have no clue how it all worked out this way, but my wife was scheduled to fly overseas on Air Canada yesterday. The same route was cancelled the day before, so we started looking at alternate airlines and somehow we found something that was $1200 cheaper and only mildly less convenient overall. At that point, her air Canada flights were not showing as cancelled. They ended up canceling like 4 hours before take off, so thank goodness we found and booked the other flights the night before. What a complete gong show and good luck to everyone trying to get home!

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

To be clear, I’m not saying whether and how much of a raise flight attendants should get. I wish them the best in their negotiations. But I’m a fan of facts, and while aircrew don’t get paid directly for all hours related to any work (I know very well myself), that is a separate issue to total compensation.

The reality is there is a ton of propaganda being released from both the union and the companies side (as in any labour action). And be very skeptical of all of it. Both sides are trying to win the public relations battle, not trying to fairly educate people on the issues.

So is there an FA that made under 35k? Sure. But she is new, part time, or both.
The company could release info about how well they are paid, but they would also try to use edge cases to advance their propaganda agenda.

I am also a big fan of facts. That being the case are you able to share the facts you are using to support your insinuation that any FAs making under 35k are “edge” cases?

Originally Posted by Locke

I do taxes for numerous Flight Attendants and none of them make anywhere close to that little, closer to double that unless they're extremely part time.

I'm not weighing in because I dont know all the circumstances but some people do the job for the perks.

Can you do fact fans like myself and Ryan Coke a favour by telling us how many of the over 10k striking FAs are clients of yours?

[btimbit]

That one that posted on Reddit said they'd been there for 2.5 years and average 35 hours a month unpaid.

Yes, of course if you're there 10+ years you make a lot more than that. But from what I've been reading the actual average is less than $30/hr. You can make more than that fueling plane.

I'm well aware that only getting paid from brakes off to brakes on is normal in the industry, I'm a pilot (barely)
That doesn't mean it SHOULD be. But if there's no institutional momentum to change that then the wage should have that in mind. $28.50, not gonna cut it

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by btimbit

That one that posted on Reddit said they'd been there for 2.5 years and average 35 hours a month unpaid.

Yes, of course if you're there 10+ years you make a lot more than that. But from what I've been reading the actual average is less than $30/hr. You can make more than that fueling plane.

I'm well aware that only getting paid from brakes off to brakes on is normal in the industry, I'm a pilot (barely)
That doesn't mean it SHOULD be. But if there's no institutional momentum to change that then the wage should have that in mind. $28.50, not gonna cut it

As passengers we can just start tipping the FAs like so many other service jobs. Pass around a tip basket during landing or put a tip jar at the airplane door. They can probably make a lot more money from tips than wages.

YYC to YYZ on a Max8 at $1 per passenger tip would be around $12/flight hour extra.

[Johnny199r]

Air Canada's marketshare makes it highly unlikely to downright impossible that any government would allow a strike to go on. It's pretty much an essential service at this point.

If we had a significant amount of airlines like the U.S does, the effect of a strike by one carrier would not be as strongly felt and more likely be seen as tolerable.

I recognize worker's desire to use that leverage to improve their bargaining position, that's understandable. Sadly, in a country of monopolies/duopolies, service interruption has an outsized effect on the country which makes it intolerable in the government's eyes.

Personally, as someone scheduled to fly to another continent on AC in 2 weeks, I was not looking forward to having to shell out 2-3x to get on a milk run with another airline (I live in a city with less choices than a major city). If they striked as soon as I got back to Canada, obviously (selfishly) I would have no vested interest.

[btimbit]

Also, I'm pretty sure AC crew bases are Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal. Not exactly cheap places to live

[Reggie28]

From the Air Canada website:

“The hourly pay is $41.39 for a Rouge flight attendant with 5 years of service, $63.07 for a mainline flight attendant with 10 years of service, and up to $87.01 for a service director.
A service director at Air Canada earned an average of $80,000 in 2024, excluding incentive rewards, and Health and Pension benefits. The role of the service director is to oversee onboard service. All flight attendants are eligible for this position.
Half of Air Canada mainline flight attendants earned more than $54,000 in 2024, excluding incentive rewards, and health and pension benefits. The median is influenced by the fact that about one third of flights attendants have been hired in the past 5 years. At the top of the scale, which they reach within 10 years, flight attendants can make more than $70,000.”

What doesn’t add ho to me is if the wage is $63/hour, full time annual income should be around $126,000/year. So that would mean the FA’s are working less than full time, working full time but not getting paid for a significant number of hours or the website is wrong.

If, as previously posted, FA’s are working 35hrs/month unpaid, but still working full time hours, annual pay would be in the $100,000 range, plus pension and benefits. The company and the union should have this data, but we won’t likely get a straight story from either side during the negotiations.


https://www.aircanada.com/media/air-...-negotiations/

[Ryan Coke]

Not sure how you’re coming up with annual numbers, but an average would be 80 credit hours/month for a full time crew member, so 960 per year. Multiply that by whatever hourly wage to get a ballpark number.

[cavalera403]

Ryan
Correct me if I am wrong but the 80 credit hours is the doors closed breaks off that flight attendants are allowed to work and up to an extra 20 credit hours for voluntary extension.

That is a maximum regulated by transport Canada?

[Reggie28]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

Not sure how you’re coming up with annual numbers, but an average would be 80 credit hours/month for a full time crew member, so 960 per year. Multiply that by whatever hourly wage to get a ballpark number.

I’m not in the industry or have any idea or the regulations, but the general rule of thumb for hourly workers is you double your hourly wage to determine your full time annual income.

If FA’s are only paid for a maximum of 960 hours a year, that would explain the lower annual income. That would be 24 weeks at 40 hrs/week.

I am in total agreement that all work should be paid work, if the FA’s have to be at the airport at 08:00 for a 09:00 flight, the clock starts ticking at 08:00. We need to have a 15 minute crew safety meeting before the shift starts, pay them. Someone needs to lock up the store and shut off the lights, pay them. One of my guys used to say “I’m paid the same for marching or fighting”. Changing an established pay structure will be difficult. Management will have to be more skillful and limit the amount of paid non-productive time and the union will have to look at lower blended hourly rate, if the current rate is at level that includes some unpaid time on either end of the shift.

[Ryan Coke]

Yeah, I like where you’re going. Maybe they don’t take as much of a straight pay increase, but start getting more ancillary duties covered under their paid hours. And then continue to try to build on that evolution of the pay structure in successive contracts. I think it does make some sense for sure.

[Ryan Coke]

Originally Posted by cavalera403

Ryan
Correct me if I am wrong but the 80 credit hours is the doors closed breaks off that flight attendants are allowed to work and up to an extra 20 credit hours for voluntary extension.

That is a maximum regulated by transport Canada?

Trying to keep explanations simple makes me realize how complicated airline crew pay is. But in general, credit hours are brake off to brake on gate to gate. There’s other factors in there, but that is the basic measure. FAs don’t have nearly the same regulatory restrictions as pilots. Most FA duty and time limits are contractual and vary company to company, whereas as pilots are usually regulatory, with contractual limits added on top.

The 80 credit hours per month is just the ballpark number that most full time crewmembers would work in a month on average. FAs can work more or less if they choose, and depending on work rules which vary between companies. I am not an expert on the Air Canada FA contract specifically.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by DownInFlames

Flight attendants do work for no pay when the plane is at the gate. The government should be making airline pay.

I still say people should fly a lot less.

I still don't understand how that is legal. You show up to work, you clock in and you get paid. Are they considered contractors, is that how they get around it?

[Locke]

I havent seen too many Unionized Contractors in my time, but as to how they split up what is paid time and what isn't? We'd have to ask them I guess.

Usually that is clearly laid out in their Employment conditions? I had no idea that FAs werent paid during boarding time, that seems ridiculous. It seems to me that once they're at their gate/plane/airport/place of work then 'work' has begun and the clock starts ticking.

Maybe switch from an hourly concept to a 'run' concept? You take the Calgary/Vancouver run it pays 'X' or you take the Calgary/Mexico run it pays 'Y' I dont know.

It seems like the way its set out now is somewhat overly complicated.

[jayswin]

It really should just be hourly from the time hey get to work to the time that #### out and leave.