Friedman: LTIR may be addressed in next CBA

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

the answer is pretty simple, the cap should apply throughout the season and playoffs, if a team wants to bring a star back of LTIR that's fine but a couple of players will have to ride the press box to make room for him

The trouble is, your available cap space on any given day equals the total amount you haven't spent yet divided by the number of days remaining in the regular season. As soon as the regular season is over, you would be dividing by zero.

To cover the playoffs with the regular cap, they would need a new formula for the entire system.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

The trouble is, your available cap space on any given day equals the total amount you haven't spent yet divided by the number of days remaining in the regular season. As soon as the regular season is over, you would be dividing by zero.

To cover the playoffs with the regular cap, they would need a new formula for the entire system.

look if we can fake a moon landing and plant microchips in covid vaccines in order to track our every thought it cannot be beyond the wit and wisdom of the NHL to pro rate the cap to a theoretical 28 game season

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

look if we can fake a moon landing and plant microchips in covid vaccines in order to track our every thought it cannot be beyond the wit and wisdom of the NHL to pro rate the cap to a theoretical 28 game season

Has the NHL, in fact, got any wit or wisdom at all?

Actually, now that I think about it, there is at least one way you could manage it: Freeze the denominator at 40.

By that I mean: The trade deadline is 40 days before the end of the regular season. After that, any player traded is ineligible for the playoffs anyway, so there is no particular benefit to accruing more cap space from day to day. So why not just freeze the cap at that point?

Suppose the cap is $90 million, and the Banff Fighting Squirrels have $2.8 million in actual cap space that day. Prorated (40 days remaining in a 187-day regular season), that means they could add about $12.8 million worth of players on deadline day – which puts them $10 million over the nominal cap. The Squirrels would be allowed to activate players from LTIR only up to a maximum cap hit of $100 million at any time from the trade deadline to the end of the playoffs.

This would encourage teams to bank cap space earlier in the season, not only to load up with trades at the deadline, but to maximize their ability to reactivate injured players after the deadline.

If a team is genuinely so hard up that it needs gobs of LTIR just to get to the deadline and hasn't accrued cap space all season, well, too bad, so sad: they can keep what they have, but cannot add anything.

You would expect this to happen to teams like Montreal, who miss the playoffs entirely because they have the former best goalie on earth making a zillion dollars on permanent LTIR. You would not expect it to happen to teams like Vegas, who make the playoffs despite deliberately stashing three or four good players on LTIR until the cap is lifted.

So loading up with players on LTIR, as Vegas often does, would stop being a clever way to exploit the rules, and would start being a last resort in an emergency – which LTIR was supposed to be in the first place. A team that can't activate players before the end of the regular season wouldn't be able to do so in the playoffs either, except by putting other players with bona fide injuries on LTIR in their place.

Any thoughts?

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Any thoughts?

Yes. Smart GMs will take advantage of the rules and dumb GMs will not, thereby leaving fans of teams run by smart GMs happy and fans of teams run by dumb GMs crying for a rule change.

Like now.

The problem isn't the rules. The problem is the intelligence, flexibility, adaptability, and resourcefulness level of your front office.

[Ped]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Yes. Smart GMs will take advantage of the rules and dumb GMs will not, thereby leaving fans of teams run by smart GMs happy and fans of teams run by dumb GMs crying for a rule change.

Like now.

The problem isn't the rules. The problem is the intelligence, flexibility, adaptability, and resourcefulness level of your front office.

So everyone should trade for fragile players in the hopes they get hurt again, you can put them on LTIR?

[Erick Estrada]

There's little doubt that Tampa and LV took advantage of the rules when they had injuries to key players but at the same time teams aren't wishing their best players to get hurt and not be available to them for long stretches of the season. I'm more concerned about stuff like the Oilers did with Mike Smith where he was the starting goaltender right to the end of the playoffs and then magically couldn't play the next season despite suffering no injuries requiring surgery that was pre-planned to the point they said he would be done months before the team even had physicals. That's the kind of stuff that's planned circumvention and shouldn't be a allowed to happen.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Yes. Smart GMs will take advantage of the rules and dumb GMs will not, thereby leaving fans of teams run by smart GMs happy and fans of teams run by dumb GMs crying for a rule change.

Like now.

The problem isn't the rules. The problem is the intelligence, flexibility, adaptability, and resourcefulness level of your front office.

I disagree with this. The cap was meant as a way to level the playing field, and give small markets a chance to win with good management.

Teams that have the cash to exceed the cap are using LTIR to cheat, and conveniently get a full roster back for game 1 of the playoffs. Other teams are using LTIR to get rid of bad contracts. That's how LTIRetirement became a thing, it also gives guys like Klingberg the option to not ride busses in the AHL.

Stone(back pain), Kucherov(planned surgery before the start of the season), M. Smith(going on LTIR for game 1 of a full season), are all ways of cap circumvention IMO. If I could, I would get rid of retained salary as well, but that's me.

[Geeoff]

LTIR has many loopholes. Perhaps the cleanest way to do it is simply get rid of the rule that you can replace an injured player's salary

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

LTIR has many loopholes. Perhaps the cleanest way to do it is simply get rid of the rule that you can replace an injured player's salary

I don't think that's the answer, if you legitimately lose a key guy to injury a team should be able to replace him if possible. They are still trying to have success.

Whats BS is everybody suddenly being healthy the minute the playoffs start and as a result they are icing a roster that would be $10-20 million above the cap if it was the regular season still.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

What I don't get about LTIR is, what if Mark Stone was ready to come back miraculously with a week left in the season? All the rules say are that a team needs to get cap compliant before a player is allowed to return. So Stone would actually be healthy but by the rules as they're written would just have to wait until playoffs day 1. I don't think there's any punishment for a team in that predicament.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

What I don't get about LTIR is, what if Mark Stone was ready to come back miraculously with a week left in the season? All the rules say are that a team needs to get cap compliant before a player is allowed to return. So Stone would actually be healthy but by the rules as they're written would just have to wait until playoffs day 1. I don't think there's any punishment for a team in that predicament.

This was a thing with Kucherov because he was ready to play. Tampa couldn't activate him until the playoffs. It was also a thing with Eichel in his first season with VGK. They only activated him after either Stone or Lehner went on LTIR.

Stone miraculously recovered on: Apr, 17th, 2023; Apr 12th, 2022.
Eichel cleared to play: Apr 13th, 2023.
Lehner: Apr 18th, 2022.
Kucherov: May 16th, 2021(playoffs started on the 15th)

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by Tiger

You may be right, it isn't fair... But the question is what are they doing wrong? The answer is they are doing nothing wrong until the rules are changed.

What they are doing is wilfully ignoring the part of the rule that states that players may not remain on LTIR once they are medically fit to return. Teams are simply neglecting getting medical clearance for players until the regular season ends, which is why so many players are magically healed on the first day of the playoffs. I can’t remember the last time a player whose team was over the cap in LTIR returned in the last week of the regular season, can you?

When teams willfully ignore a part of the rule that was obviously written to prevent teams from using healed injuries to continue to circumvent the cap, it allows wealthy teams to have a significant advantage in the playoffs, which defeats the purpose of having a cap.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

What they are doing is wilfully ignoring the part of the rule that states that players may not remain on LTIR once they are medically fit to return. Teams are simply neglecting getting medical clearance for players until the regular season ends, which is why so many players are magically healed on the first day of the playoffs. I can’t remember the last time a player whose team was over the cap in LTIR returned in the last week of the regular season, can you?

When teams willfully ignore a part of the rule that was obviously written to prevent teams from using healed injuries to continue to circumvent the cap, it allows wealthy teams to have a significant advantage in the playoffs, which defeats the purpose of having a cap.

But the rules also say that a player can't reeturn to the lineup until the cap is cleared, so in a big way, the rules are enabling these teams. Note gvitaly's response above.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

But the rules also say that a player can't reeturn to the lineup until the cap is cleared, so in a big way, the rules are enabling these teams. Note gvitaly's response above.

The logical conclusion is that teams prior to taking on additional salary that puts them over the cap must plan to be cap compliant by the time players are ready to return from injury, otherwise the part about requiring players to come off LTIR when they are fit to do so serves no purpose, when obviously it was intended for some purpose.

Edit: this would ensure that LTIR was used for its original purpose, which was to allow teams to replace players whose injuries resulted in them being out for the season, as opposed to allowing teams to use the now healed injuries of players on their roster and of players acquired by trade from using this mechanism to grossly exceed the cap during the playoffs.

[Ped]

Since the cap doesn't count for the playoffs, wouldn't the easiest thing to do be to say if a player wants to play in the playoffs, he has to come off LTIR prior to the last game of the regular season? Its similar to how a team has to be cap compliant to start the season before putting the players on LTIR, but in reverse.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

As I said, I am sure many teams are not happy about teams using LTIR to build a super team in the playoffs. I still think the solution is easy, your lineup you ice in the playoffs must be cap compliant.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/article...r-in-next-cba/

Not such an easy solution.

Teams that trade for a player at the deadline, just fitting him in, will not be cap compliant come playoff time. And most teams trading for deadline players are pretty much close at the cap already.

While your solution solves the problem of teams who sit healthy players before the end of the season, it punishes everyone else with respect to legitimate trades at the deadline, including teams who are trying to get value for expiring UFA’s.

[renny]

Originally Posted by Ped

Since the cap doesn't count for the playoffs, wouldn't the easiest thing to do be to say if a player wants to play in the playoffs, he has to come off LTIR prior to the last game of the regular season? Its similar to how a team has to be cap compliant to start the season before putting the players on LTIR, but in reverse.

This would be pretty unfair though if a player is injured near the end of the season but would be able to join the team in like the 2nd round or something.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Not such an easy solution.

Teams that trade for a player at the deadline, just fitting him in, will not be cap compliant come playoff time. And most teams trading for deadline players are pretty much close at the cap already.

While your solution solves the problem of teams who sit healthy players before the end of the season, it punishes everyone else with respect to legitimate trades at the deadline, including teams who are trying to get value for expiring UFA’s.

Including teams who keep currently healthy players on LTIR just so they can trade them to a playoff contender that is already over the cap.

The abuse is getting worse every year as it becomes clear that the league isn’t going to punish clear violations of LTIR rules. If it isn’t fixed, the cap will be a joke and there will only 5-6 teams competing for the Cup every year.

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

What they are doing is wilfully ignoring the part of the rule that states that players may not remain on LTIR once they are medically fit to return. Teams are simply neglecting getting medical clearance for players until the regular season ends, which is why so many players are magically healed on the first day of the playoffs. I can’t remember the last time a player whose team was over the cap in LTIR returned in the last week of the regular season, can you?

When teams willfully ignore a part of the rule that was obviously written to prevent teams from using healed injuries to continue to circumvent the cap, it allows wealthy teams to have a significant advantage in the playoffs, which defeats the purpose of having a cap.

You can argue your not rushing a player back in a meaningless game, which is the smart thing to do. probably best for player safety not coming back early. There are so many ways you can justify it, within the rules, that they are not Willfully ignoring the part of the rule.

Note, the last time was Bergeron (who came back too early, I believe for personal reason too)

[Ped]

Originally Posted by renny

This would be pretty unfair though if a player is injured near the end of the season but would be able to join the team in like the 2nd round or something.

That's an easy enough fix. If a player is on LTIR at the trade deadline, then he has to be activated prior to the last game of the season to be able to play in the playoffs.