“Dismantle the Police” politician attacked

[8 Ball]

Originally Posted by btimbit

We only do that if the call indicated there's visible weapons present

What about a school shooting, where the weapon is not visible, but obviously being used, and there are visible casualties requiring immediate medical response? No, CPS on scene yet.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by 8 Ball

What about a school shooting, where the weapon is not visible, but obviously being used, and there are visible casualties requiring immediate medical response? No, CPS on scene yet.

They wait until CPS get onto and clear the scene. Dead/hurt medics can't help.

[btimbit]

And honestly I don't see a scenario like that where there's much Fire or EMS on scene before CPS anyway, they'd be rolling in so hot and heavy for something like that

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

They wait until CPS get onto and clear the scene. Dead/hurt medics can't help.

Can these procedures ever be waived or logically ignored?

Just heard a story from a friend of mine yesterday. She is a teacher and was standing outside her elementary school after the school day with all the kids bustling about, going to their parents, lots of parents and kids walking around. Down a small hill nearby, there were a bunch of kids starting a commotion, but she couldn’t tell what was happening and wasn’t sure if they were playing or if some kids were in distress as there was a bunch of shouting and commotion. Eventually after a few seconds she starts to go over and it was a bunch of Ukrainian refugee kids, not kids from her school, that had been maced randomly by a passerby. Some ####### on a bike apparently rode by, opened his jacket, pulled out mace and maced these kids in the faces and then rode away. These kids were like rolling on the ground in agony, and the one kid who spoke English was trying to explain what happened to her. She called for more teachers to help and they called 911. Here’s where it gets wild to me. 911 says they need to dispatch the police first because a weapon was used, and won’t send EMS or fire until the scene is clear. Then they get put on hold (didn’t know this was a thing?!). The teachers are all trying to calm all these kids down but even some of them start to feel the effects of the mace. They try to explain to the 911 operator that the guy on the bike that maced them is long gone and no threat visible but 911 refuses to send any ems still. It took police something like 15 mins to get there and then EMS fire didn’t show up for she thinks somewhere between 25-30 minutes.

These Ukrainian kids apparently have been in Canada only a few short months. Just awful.

Can’t an instance like this a 911 operator use judgement and send in a EMS / Fire without having to wait for police to clear a scene? Seems like a very weird and potentially illogical procedure depending on circumstances.

Also the operator was like explaining the procedure to these teachers. Like yeah we can’t send EMS for their safety, etc. it’s like okay sweet but these teachers without any proper materials or eye wash or training got it! Makes sense! They can be in the “danger”?

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Scenario

Ok, a lot to cover there. I'll try to hit all the bases, and keep in mind I am a police ECO, so I don't 100% know fire/EMS specific policies.

First and foremost, a 911 dispatcher/operator can't do bupkis to 'make' police/fire/ems do anything. We put the call up, we notify them of the situation, and then they do what they do. I can't tell a cop, for instance "Go to this situation with your lights and sirens on", that's a call that the cop has to make for themselves. I imagine that it's much the same with fire/EMS. Their dispatchers aren't telling them what to do, just where they are needed. How they get there and what they do once there is wholly up to them and their understanding of their policies.

For the specific scenario of a school shooting, every fire/EMS policy I'm aware of states that they are not to enter the building until police have cleared it, or at least cleared a safe zone for them to work in. But that's specifically for school shooting/lockdowns.

For the mace scenario you presented, that sounds like it would have been dealt with as a Holdback...since the attacker was considered to be gone, the call would be put up for dispatch to all three services. If fire/EMS arrived first, it would be up to the most senior on-scene person to make the decision to help or wait for police.

While mace sucks, and being maced sucks, it's not generally lethal, so since the bad guy is gone, it'd likely still be coded as a higher priority call, but how fast the units dispatched actually went would be up to them. We've had serious shortages with EMS lately, so it taking them a while to get to a non-lethal incident isn't a big surprise to me.

And yes, you can be put on hold when calling 911. Given the macing scenario, I can see how it worked...

911 was called, PSAP (fire) answers - all 3 services are required, but since a weapon was involved, police are 'first'. Call is transferred to police (could be put on hold here). Fire likely stays on the call and listens in the background, building a call.

Police answer - Police questions are asked and answered - police are dispatched. Police put caller on hold, and bring on EMS. Caller is likely put on hold here while Police update EMS and get them rolling. Caller then likely talks to EMS while Police (and fire) stay on the line, listening.

How fast the units go and what they do when they get there all depends on them, not the dispatchers.

The above process seems like it'd take a long time, but we're pretty good at it, and it can be pretty quick. It was easier when we were all in the same room, but that's a ship long sailed.

[Mr.Coffee]

Thanks, I know it is nuanced, but it just struck me as a brutal situation and seemed odd they wouldn’t just dispatch EMS immediately but who knows- I am also hearing this second hand.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Thanks, I know it is nuanced, but it just struck me as a brutal situation and seemed odd they wouldn’t just dispatch EMS immediately but who knows- I am also hearing this second hand.

No problem. Dispatch is a weird thing as far as public understanding goes. There are a lot of layers of policy and the like. A call can be 'dispatched' as soon as an address is provided (which is why it's one of the first questions). But which unit takes it and when is up to them, not the dispatcher (which is counter-intuitive, I know).

Then on top of that, units still have to get there. A macing with the bad guy gone probably wouldn't have been a lights and siren response, so driving normally, from where ever they were to where they needed to be.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

De-fund was always a branding nightmare. De-militarize would be a better way to go, especially in the States.

Was there many jurisdictions that actually followed through with defunding? Might be too early, but has there been a reduction in crime?

I would be interesting to see how it worked out. One city can be so different from the next, that you can’t say, “it worked here, let’s do it everywhere” or vice versa the other way.