[Rumour] Coyotes owner put in letter of intent to buy 41 acres of land in Mesa, Arizona

[getbak]

https://goo.gl/maps/pupXR3URptAKqnEC6

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Nah I think it's a fair comment, the goal posts always move.

"Glendale doesn't work the team needs to be downtown"

"Can't get a rink built downtown? It's okay, Tempe is better anyways"

"Tempe deal fell through, well there is still Scottsdale, that's where the fans are anyways!"

"If Scottsdale doesn't work then that's fine, the fans all live in Mesa"

Doesn't matter what the demographics are...building arenas that aren't downtown and aren't easily accessible with public transit is never a good strategy.

It's Embarassing they are allowing a professional franchise to play in a 4600 seat stadium, for more than a season or two. Especially since they don't actually have an arena agreement in place.

Honestly I think the best thing for hockey in Phoenix at this point would be to let the Coyotes leave. Too much baggage with that franchise and too many years of failed owners.

Move the team, build a new multi sport arena in partnership with the Suns, and then try again with expansion in 5-10 years once the sour taste is gone from the market (preferably with a better ownership group).

I don't recall anyone advocating for DT Phoenix. It has always been the case that suggestions were near the university and airport and/or Scottsdale near the reserve.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don't recall anyone advocating for DT Phoenix. It has always been the case that suggestions were near the university and airport and/or Scottsdale near the reserve.

100% correct. That was some of the best revisionist history I've seen on CP.

Had the Yotes moved from America West to Scottsdale/Tempe/Mesa we aren't having this conversation.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don't recall anyone advocating for DT Phoenix. It has always been the case that suggestions were near the university and airport and/or Scottsdale near the reserve.

Why wouldn't downtown be the priority? Isn't that where the Suns (and most concerts/events) and Diamondbacks play and it's the norm for most major US arenas.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don't recall anyone advocating for DT Phoenix. It has always been the case that suggestions were near the university and airport and/or Scottsdale near the reserve.

I think that has always been because there was always going to be an issue with getting Sarver to agree to a dual purpose arena, and that it would be tough to get a second arena for hockey only downtown.

Not because it wouldn't be the best option.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Why wouldn't downtown be the priority? Isn't that where the Suns (and most concerts/events) and Diamondbacks play and it's the norm for most major US arenas.

EDIT: I think the reality ofg them not wanting them there was always known, so they preferred closer to the southeast end.

[Strange Brew]

What comparably sized cities have separate arenas for NHL and NBA teams? Seems like one arena is always going to have a harder time attracting other events.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don't think of that area as downtown Phoenix. It's more like the university district.

I'm not an expert in Phoenix geography but seems like it is close to city center core. Does it matter what the specific area is referred to?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I'm not an expert in Phoenix geography but seems like it is close to city center core. Does it matter what the specific area is referred to?

It's closer to mid-Phoenix all right. But "downtown" Phoenix isn't really like Calgary anyway. Businesses are pretty spread out.

DT Phoenix versus Scottsdale or Tempe isn't really an issue and pretending like that's goalpost moving reflects a pretty biased view. It's like saying advocates for East Village versus Stampede Park versus West Village were advocating for completely different areas of Calgary, when they are within 5 minutes of each other.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

What comparably sized cities have separate arenas for NHL and NBA teams? Seems like one arena is always going to have a harder time attracting other events.

Detroit used to.

Florida is the only one currently IIRC.

[GioforPM]

Nets and Isles used to both be at Barclays but the Isles moved.

[sleepingmoose]

The Timberwolves and Wild also play at separate arenas 10 miles apart.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

The best part about Salt Lake City is that the team doesn't have to change the name...

There's coyotes in Utah

The Utah Jazz would argue that coyotes or not, they will roll with it.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It's closer to mid-Phoenix all right. But "downtown" Phoenix isn't really like Calgary anyway. Businesses are pretty spread out.

DT Phoenix versus Scottsdale or Tempe isn't really an issue and pretending like that's goalpost moving reflects a pretty biased view. It's like saying advocates for East Village versus Stampede Park versus West Village were advocating for completely different areas of Calgary, when they are within 5 minutes of each other.

IMO the comparisons to Calgary aren't really relevant. Having an arena in the center of town is very helpful even when business centers are spread out. Dallas, Denver, Houston are easy examples I can think of.

As I said, I don't know Phoenix geography all that well but I don't recall central Phoenix, Tempe, Scottsdale, Mesa all being within 5 minutes of each other. If they are, then yeah the point is irrelevant. And I don't know what mass transit is like there either. In my experience the freeways have less traffic than other big US cities.

As for the cities being mentioned where there are different arena for NBA and NHL:

NY metro - ?? not comparable to Phoenix at all
Miami and Sunrise - interesting. Panthers attendance is routinely abysmal whereas the Heat play downtown
Minnesota - didn't know about that.

Maybe the goalposts are being moved I don't know but IMO a downtown arena probably would have helped the Coyotes and would be more ideal than these other locations. But likely not in the cards.

Regardless I think this whole press release and supposed LOI is just a bunch of noise and hype that the owner is using to buy some time. No way is he going to go and fully pay for his own arena.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

What comparably sized cities have separate arenas for NHL and NBA teams? Seems like one arena is always going to have a harder time attracting other events.

There are 10 NHL teams that share a building with an NBA team (* = both teams have the same owner):

1. Boston
2. Chicago
3. Colorado *
4. Dallas
5. Detroit
6. Los Angeles
7. NY Rangers *
8. Philadelphia
9. Toronto *
10. Washington *

The Pistons & Red Wings and Raptors & Leafs had previously played in separate arenas.

There are 3 NHL teams that share the same metro area with an NBA team but play in different arenas:

1. Arizona
2. Florida
3. Minnesota

The Suns & Coyotes and Heat & Panthers had previously played in shared arenas.

The New York market also has the NBA Nets, who have previously shared their arena with both the Devils and Islanders, but currently all three teams play in their own arenas.

The Los Angeles market has the NBA Clippers, who currently share their arena with the Kings and Lakers, but will be moving into their own arena next fall (2024). Anaheim is also part of the LA metro area and the Ducks play in their own arena.



The Sixers have recently began exploring the possibility of building their own new arena in Philadelphia to be separate from the current arena which is operated by the Flyers' owner.

Mark Cuban has suggested the Mavericks may be looking to build a new arena in Dallas, but it's likely more about trying to get public money for a renovation to their existing arena.

If Vegas gets an NBA expansion team, they will likely play in their own arena. If Seattle gets an NBA expansion team, they will likely play in the same arena as the Kraken.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

IMO the comparisons to Calgary aren't really relevant. Having an arena in the center of town is very helpful even when business centers are spread out. Dallas, Denver, Houston are easy examples I can think of.

As I said, I don't know Phoenix geography all that well but I don't recall central Phoenix, Tempe, Scottsdale, Mesa all being within 5 minutes of each other. If they are, then yeah the point is irrelevant. And I don't know what mass transit is like there either. In my experience the freeways have less traffic than other big US cities.

As for the cities being mentioned where there are different arena for NBA and NHL:

NY metro - ?? not comparable to Phoenix at all
Miami and Sunrise - interesting. Panthers attendance is routinely abysmal whereas the Heat play downtown
Minnesota - didn't know about that.

Maybe the goalposts are being moved I don't know but IMO a downtown arena probably would have helped the Coyotes and would be more ideal than these other locations. But likely not in the cards.

Regardless I think this whole press release and supposed LOI is just a bunch of noise and hype that the owner is using to buy some time. No way is he going to go and fully pay for his own arena.

5 minutes was an exageration, though a small one. Depending where you are standing, all those places are 10-15 minutes away from Sky Harbour, which I view as the hub.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It's closer to mid-Phoenix all right. But "downtown" Phoenix isn't really like Calgary anyway. Businesses are pretty spread out.

DT Phoenix versus Scottsdale or Tempe isn't really an issue and pretending like that's goalpost moving reflects a pretty biased view. It's like saying advocates for East Village versus Stampede Park versus West Village were advocating for completely different areas of Calgary, when they are within 5 minutes of each other.

But they aren't within 5 minutes - it's more like 15 minutes between each of these locations.

Footprint Center is 15 minutes to Mullet arena / Arizona State University.

Mullett to this new Mesa location is probably another 10 minutes, and Footprint center would be about 20-25 minutes to this new location (without traffic)

This Mesa location to Talking Stick (another rumoured location) is 15 minutes, Footprint is 25 minutes to talking stick.

So it's not really East Village, West Village vs Stampede Grounds.

It's more like Stampede Park vs by the Zoo (12 minutes), vs. Deerfoot Mall (20 minutes from Saddledome with no traffic).

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

But they aren't within 5 minutes - it's more like 15 minutes between each of these locations.

Footprint Center is 15 minutes to Mullet arena / Arizona State University.

Mullett to this new Mesa location is probably another 10 minutes, and Footprint center would be about 20-25 minutes to this new location (without traffic)

This Mesa location to Talking Stick (another rumoured location) is 15 minutes, Footprint is 25 minutes to talking stick.

So it's not really East Village, West Village vs Stampede Grounds.

It's more like Stampede Park vs by the Zoo (12 minutes), vs. Deerfoot Mall (20 minutes from Saddledome with no traffic).

Yeah I said it was an exaggeration. But why would you measure Mullett to the new location? Airport hub area to Mesa is 10-12 minutes. That's a flash. The point is, these various locations do something that Glendale didn't. And frankly, try driving from WV to Stampede grounds in less than 15 minutes.

The big downfall for anywhere in greater Phoenix is mass transit. So that's a big issue. They solve it for football with dedicated buses.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Yeah I said it was an exaggeration. But why would you measure Mullett to the new location? Airport hub area to Mesa is 10-12 minutes. That's a flash. The point is, these various locations do something that Glendale didn't. And frankly, try driving from WV to Stampede grounds in less than 15 minutes.

The big downfall for anywhere in greater Phoenix is mass transit. So that's a big issue. They solve it for football with dedicated buses.

Football is entirely different though. NFL and college games are events, so the commute is less of a factor and it's hard to tailgate from the metro bus. So many of these stadiums are outside of downtown which also gives room for parking.

Several big US cities don't have great mass transit.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Football is entirely different though. NFL and college games are events, so the commute is less of a factor and it's hard to tailgate from the metro bus. So many of these stadiums are outside of downtown which also gives room for parking.

Several big US cities don't have great mass transit.

Yes, of course football is different.

The point about mass transit is that Phoenix is a very spread out city. So, for example, is Houston. And those cities are in the bottom of NBA attendance and I suspect getting to the game is an issue.

What would make more sense is for owners in the few NBA/NHL cities that don't have shared arenas to give their heads a bit of a shake and quit being obstinate. There's money to be made and money to be saved by sharing.