The Athletic: How Sutter lost the room and his job

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

To me, Sutter's rep has gone down the ####ter after last season. Thank you for reinvigorating the franchise in the early 2000s and the memories. But go #### yourself for some of the things you have clearly gotten away with over your career under the guise of being one of the winningest coaches ever. I was a "in Sutter we trust" guy for the longest time. But hard to feel any kind of sympathy for him, especially since he's shown zero remorse for anything he's done.

As a society broadly it's only been the last decade or so where we've started to question 'How we win?' as much as 'are we winning?.' Only now are we taking stock of what actually has happened in the name of the latter and the kinds of behavior that are normalized and accepted by people who are good at winning.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

I never really thought the Pelletier thing was a big deal. I always took it as Sutter just saying, "why are you asking about a guy that only played 7 minutes and had one shot on goal." Kind of sarcastically saying... "who? what's his number again?" And then the "he's only 21, still has a long way to go" part was saying "relax, he's young, let him play some more before you start asking about him."

In isolation it wasn't...but Sutter spent the better part of the year to that point making dumb or condescending comments to the media. The pressers were absolutely painful at that point, you couldn't get a straight answer out him. I think the media had enough Sutterisms at that moment, and honestly, rightfully so.

I've been as big a Sutter fan as anyone, but I thought all his negative tactics were dialed way too high last season. He completely deserved to get removed from the role. There's really no defending someone creating that negative of an environment, for literally everyone around the organization.

Great coach who for whatever reason seemed to go off the deep end last year.

[Flame On]

All quite disturbing and no wonder our team is in disarray.

It's curious why we hear reports of players still wanting to leave, even though Sutter is gone. And it makes me wonder, that although there are other factors for sure, could some of it be that Tre knew what was going on and put his foot down, and the ownership let him walk and kept Sutter? Until ultimately the players ultimatums pushed him out?

That would create a lot of bad blood also, if knowing what was going on, you elect to keep the trouble maker.

Speculation for sure but I wonder if there's still bad blood even though the offender is gone.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by Igottago

.

Great coach who for whatever reason seemed to go off the deep end last year.

Rhett on BB all year was talking about how winning the Adams likely had Darryl squeezing too hard at times. That is until Darryl started wearing ALL the issues on the team in the discourse and then he's pushing back on it a bit.

[UKflames]

I dont get how a physical altracation can occur on the bench during a game, with all of the cameras that cover the game, and no one saw it?
Im not saying it didnt happen, but could it have been that major if it wasnt picked during the game. TV are always looking for talking points and this would have been a doozy.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by UKflames

I dont get how a physical altracation can occur on the bench during a game, with all of the cameras that cover the game, and no one saw it?
Im not saying it didnt happen, but could it have been that major if it wasnt picked during the game. TV are always looking for talking points and this would have been a doozy.

You know when you absolutely hate your boss and dream of them being fired, so you lean 100% in to any tiny misstep they make? I have a feeling that’s what this was.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I just don't think that abuse on any level is tolerable, but a lot of players in the NHL are so deeply embedded in a culture that has promoted it for so long that many of them are not even aware it is happening, and how damaging it is.

The entire league is full of it. We've all heard players mic'd up. Every NHL shift is f-bomb after f-bomb directed at players, coaches and refs. There's no respect. Remember that HBO documentary with Boudreau dropping the f bombs?

So now suddenly coaches have to be gentle?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing any kind of physical contact, but I'm having trouble with all the criticism when bad behavior by everyone around the league is the norm.

You cannot equate the rink or a dressing room to a downtown office.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Where did anyone say they have to be gentle?
Just don't be abusive.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

The entire league is full of it. We've all heard players mic'd up. Every NHL shift is f-bomb after f-bomb directed at players, coaches and refs. There's no respect. Remember that HBO documentary with Boudreau dropping the f bombs?

So now suddenly coaches have to be gentle?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not excusing any kind of physical contact, but I'm having trouble with all the criticism when bad behavior by everyone around the league is the norm.

You cannot equate the rink or a dressing room to a downtown office.

I don't think it's about being 'gentle'. Not saying you're doing but all year this conversation has been framed as dichotomy of extremes. I don't think that's actually the case. I think the broader discussion is more accurately where culturally is the fine line between what's too much, what's enough etc.

And one of the big takeaways, that you CAN draw across both the rink and office contexts is that line is going to vary based on our team members.

Paraphrasing Huska this week it's about how you communicate. It's not that pushing someone etc isn't allowed.

It's not a 'snowflake' thing. It's a cultural shift and the Rick Bells of the world are just weirdo reactionaries about it.

[Manhattanboy]

nm

[Calgary4LIfe]

Don't meet your heroes, right?



Sutter is known for having been 'borderline abusive' - one of the coaches that goes almost too far. Well, now we know that he has crossed the line a few times.



What confuses me the most out of this, is why he wasn't canned halfway through the season then. Flames were sputtering, the environment seemed toxic, and everybody apparently was hating life. They went the entire season anyway.

Ok, then why didn't he get axed right at the end of the season? Did Treliving really drop the ball? Somehow I don't see this as a Treliving vs Sutter thing. If the team had done an investigation during the season already... I mean, what am I missing here? Seems to be a bit of a disconnect, no? Seems like Treliving just wiped his hands off, turned around, and just decided to leave rather than to deal with this.



The media did portray it as Treliving just lost the power-struggle against Sutter, but was that REALLY what happened? Or did Treliving simply want out of Calgary, and left the mess to be dealt with by Maloney?


At any rate, these types of coaches are becoming increasingly rare, and that's a good thing. I have always felt that the types of leaders who behave like drill sergeants are some of the worst kind of leaders. Sure, they will whip people into shape fast, but then eventually everyone just ends up leaving because things get too toxic. That's why these coaches have a shelf-life after all. There are less and less of them every year it seems, and soon, they will be a thing of the past.


It is too bad about Sutter as he gave us Flames' fans great memories, but so did a lot of other personalities in the organization. Sometimes the less you know about your hero, the better. However, it certainly makes the class acts so much more appreciated - like Lanny, Iginla, Conroy, Badger Bob, etc.



I look forward to a new era in Calgary.

[Tbull8]

Originally Posted by UKflames

I dont get how a physical altracation can occur on the bench during a game, with all of the cameras that cover the game, and no one saw it?
Im not saying it didnt happen, but could it have been that major if it wasnt picked during the game. TV are always looking for talking points and this would have been a doozy.

TV timeout

[GioforPM]

I'm not surprised there was no changeover at that point. It was Oct./Nov. according to the story. Sutter had just signed his extension which didn't even kick in until this year. Absent an abuse allegation that stuck, they aren't firing a guy they just extended.

[rogermexico]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

What confuses me the most out of this, is why he wasn't canned halfway through the season then. Flames were sputtering, the environment seemed toxic, and everybody apparently was hating life. They went the entire season anyway.

I think it's all the timing of that internal investigation. This is the vibe I get looking at this today and thinking back over the season:

Over the summer a bunch of players from the leadership group leave, including key pieces of the player buffer relationship with Sutter, according to the Athletic article.

You bring in three high profile new additions.

Sutter comes back in the fall and starts over doing it (Rhett Warrener's outside-looking-in guess.)

A month into the season, the "extra Sutter" approach is causing friction in what's already an unsettled room.

Then in November the team becomes aware of this allegation of physical contact.

Given what Treliving has been through with Bill Peters, you've got to think that the internal investigation is pretty thorough, and it probably touches a lot of old wounds in the organization. So it's probably tense and fraught. And given what we know about Sutter — he doesn't like being told what to do or second guessed – the very fact that it's happening at all doesn't go down well with him.

So maybe the investigation ultimately determines that there's nothing there. Or maybe there is, and there's some kind of internal discipline that we don't know about.

Either way, you can imagine that the process leaves a) Sutter feeling isolated and extra combative, and b) the players feeling like they don't have the team's support. Nobody wins.

So now you've got the worst situation: a tense relationship is now completely broken, everything spirals out of control, and the team, which has just gone through a whole internal review process that led them to sticking with their coach, is stuck with him.

If all this goes down November/December, it kind of makes a lot of the weird spiral we watched from the outside make sense.

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I look forward to a new era in Calgary.

Amen to that.

[Ford Prefect]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Don't meet your heroes, right?

(Snip)

At any rate, these types of coaches are becoming increasingly rare, and that's a good thing. I have always felt that the types of leaders who behave like drill sergeants are some of the worst kind of leaders. Sure, they will whip people into shape fast, but then eventually everyone just ends up leaving because things get too toxic. That's why these coaches have a shelf-life after all. There are less and less of them every year it seems, and soon, they will be a thing of the past.

A couple comments.

First, sometimes your heroes live up to expectations. I had the good fortune to interview one of mine for a magazine article once…Richard Cosgrave. After the interview I turned off the recorder and we had a long, candid conversation about a lot of things…rodeo life, Alberta history, ranching. Cosgrave surpassed my existing impression of him.

As for tough drill sergeants, I asked my dad who was a WW II vet about guys like that. He said they weren’t usually common in reality. Guys like that tended to die from friendly fire he said. Seems like that is what happened to Sutter, and increasingly others like him.

I agree with your closing statement. Because the toxic culture with Flames and in hockey is changing I look forward to better times too.

[WCW Nitro]

This is why I don't buy the whole he is just a calculated guy trying to prepare the team for the playoffs, some people are just jerks

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Igottago

In isolation it wasn't...but Sutter spent the better part of the year to that point making dumb or condescending comments to the media. The pressers were absolutely painful at that point, you couldn't get a straight answer out him. I think the media had enough Sutterisms at that moment, and honestly, rightfully so.

Sutter clearly despises the media. And that’s who his comments about Pelletier in the post-game presser were aimed at, not Pelletier. But it was unprofessional to let the snarky games he plays with the media become a story that affected the dressing room.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Where did anyone say they have to be gentle?
Just don't be abusive.

I doubt everybody in hockey - coaches, players, media, the fans - is on the same page about what constitutes abuse.

Is yelling at a player on the bench to get this ####ing head out of his ass abuse?

Is grabbing a stick out of player’s hand in practice and tossing it across the ice abuse?

Singling out a player in the dressing room between periods and telling him he’s going to be sent to the minors if he doesn’t shape up?

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Sutter clearly despises the media. And that’s who his comments about Pelletier in the post-game presser were aimed at, not Pelletier. But it was unprofessional to let the snarky games he plays with the media become a story that affected the dressing room.

A lot harder to just keep that within the 'family' of the local market nowadays too.

[curves2000]

I have said it before and will say it again, this franchise is going to do absolutely nothing in terms of performance and winning with a top down culture that allows this level of stupidity I don't know if it's ownership directly, upper management in CSEC or what but they are getting exposed. Famous Warren Buffett quote " It’s only when the tide goes out that you learn who has been swimming naked"

S*** has hit the fan for this team for years and they are getting exposed. You COULD have an excellent coach in Sutter without his high level of garbage that he has brought to this organization on multiple front's. The organization CHOOSES to not do that. I don't care what people say, when your employer is paying you $4 million a year, the employer has leverage. Sutter may not need the money but he isn't returning the chq's to ownership either. It's a straight up, knock this crap out approach and issue a directive.

These type of stupid thinking has allowed this team to do absolutely nothing in a very long time. I don't care how successful these owners and upper management are in other roles in other businesses. If they were this stupid in their primary business, they would not have lasted this long and been kicked to the curb for poor performance.

I am too lazy to look up the stats but in the post lockout era, the Flames have to be one of the few cap teams with the lowest amount of playoff wins. Great overall performance!