Study finds NHL enforcers die 10 yrs younger than their peers

[FlamingHomer]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Banning the grappling aspect of hockey fights would almost completely wipe them out, no?



Guys just have to stand back and throw hands on skates? Who’s gonna do that?

Most combative sports that allow punching don't offer an opportunity to hold the opposing fighter by clothing while doing that. True, they also aren't on skates but if you want to fight someone bad enough, you figure it out.

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

The rule should be if you jump a guy after a big hit it is automatically 5 and a game.

Isn't that instigate penalty? They don't seem to call them anymore, did they abolish that penalty?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Hey Connor, It's Mess

Some of the people who say that are NHL players. The NHLPA doesn't seem to have an issue with fighting or hard checks. Why do fans feel the need to speak for the people who actually play the game at the highest level?

Ask ex players suffering from serious consequences of concussions how they feel about it.
Or as the widows of the enforcers that have died.
They may have a different view.
Pro athletes are horrible at assessing their own safety. You had Craig MacTavish running around without a helmet for pete's sake.

And it spills down to lower level of hockey. Ban it from the NHL and it goes away everywhere.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

The odd time, McSorley, Dude that played for the North Stars, my boy when he was 6 chasing his teammate across the lacrosse floor

I guess my point is what's the difference. Why is punching people ok, but using your stick isn't if both are done in the heat of the moment and both contravene the Rule Book

There are about 280-300 fights a year in the NHL. I say ban fighting and see if we have 300 incidents of guys attacking guys faces with their sticks. If we do then bring back fighting as a deterrent to the stick work.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by midniteowl

Isn't that instigate penalty? They don't seem to call them anymore, did they abolish that penalty?

I am pretty sure instigator was just an extra minor penalty.

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I am pretty sure instigator was just an extra minor penalty.

My memory is failing me, I thought what it used to be is the instigator is tossed?

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by midniteowl

My memory is failing me, I thought what it used to be is the instigator is tossed?

I looked it up. It is 2 for instigating, 5 for fighting, and a 10 minute misconduct. So because anybody being punched will punch back the 5 minute penalties will offset. So a 2 minute PP and the player sits for an extra 10. If a player instigated in the final 5 minutes it's a 1 game suspension too. So maybe make it 5 for instigating, 5 for fighting if the player fights back, a game misconduct, and a 1 game suspension. So a 5 minute major PP either way for the team whose player got jumped. That would cut back on it.

[Hey Connor, It's Mess]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Ask ex players suffering from serious consequences of concussions how they feel about it.
Or as the widows of the enforcers that have died.
They may have a different view.
Pro athletes are horrible at assessing their own safety. You had Craig MacTavish running around without a helmet for pete's sake.

And it spills down to lower level of hockey. Ban it from the NHL and it goes away everywhere.

Yeah and they're a miniscule minority. To my knowledge none of those people are active NHLPA members either so as insensitive as it is to say, they should have no bearing on what active players get to do or how they should approach their workplace safety. The "we know better than they do so let's ban it" has so many holes as an argument that it isn't even worth addressing.

The fact that neither the NHLPA nor the NHL have collectively bargained for changes in these areas should adequately inform the public that THEY don't want changes. Yet, we still have people trying to advocate for players.

And fighting is banned at almost every level of hockey already so I'm not sure where you're heading with that.

[midniteowl]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I looked it up. It is 2 for instigating, 5 for fighting, and a 10 minute misconduct. So because anybody being punched will punch back the 5 minute penalties will offset. So a 2 minute PP and the player sits for an extra 10. If a player instigated in the final 5 minutes it's a 1 game suspension too. So maybe make it 5 for instigating, 5 for fighting if the player fights back, a game misconduct, and a 1 game suspension. So a 5 minute major PP either way for the team whose player got jumped. That would cut back on it.

Oh, could it be the "third man in" rule that the third man is tossed?


I agree with your original post, anybody instigate a fight should be 5 and a game.

[bluejays]

Bettman has been aiming toward getting rid of fighting since he was put in. The game itself is injecting more skill where oldschool guys who want to fight are liabilities and not part of the game as much. What some don't understand here is it's a business. It's been part of the sport for ages that they can't outright ban it without turning off a percentage of their fans. The instigator was the last major move to deter it in the game. I'm sure the next move will be to call it more often, or to penalize those predetermined fights (which are just dumb, anyway). I think the NHL is doing it right to not alienate their portion of fans and focus on the skill. I'm sure it's being weeded out slower than some would like, but they're also handling a business so I do understand where they're coming from.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Applauding and condoning predatory hits is somewhat unaccepted these days, so that group is getting smaller and smaller. However, the statement "keep your head up" implies to me that it's about protecting yourself. Don't put yourself in a situation where someone can take advantage of you and lay you out, or even accidentally injure you with a normal body check. At the very least, be ready for a body check in the best possible way to avoid injury. To me that seems pretty sensible.

Sure, it’s sensible. Who says it isn’t? It’s the context it usually comes in that’s the issue I’m pointing out. Some guy accidentally runs into a player? Yeah man, keep your head up. Someone gets blown up by a high hit? I don’t know, maybe that’s not a great time.

There is a certain type of guy who watches a player get a head injury from a predatory hit and places the balance of blame on the victim. It’s really stupid. It’s always “keep your head up” for the victim and “hockey is fast! it’s a split second decision!” like, as if the hitter should get more of a break for being predatory than the victim should get for being careless. I’ve got no respect for that bloodthirsty way of looking at a sport that’s a lot more than head punching and predatory hits. Those guys should just go watch their Rock Em Sock Em tapes and be gone imo.

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

If Timo Meier is going skate with his head down into four Rangers, one of which is Jacob Trouba, in a game 7, it’s nobody’s fault but Timo Meier’s when he gets KO’d.

It’s actually the fault of the person who KO’s him. That’s generally how these things work. It’s not like staking head-first into the boards, it’s another person that takes an action they could avoid that causes the issue.

Originally Posted by Hey Connor, It's Mess

Some of the people who say that are NHL players. The NHLPA doesn't seem to have an issue with fighting or hard checks. Why do fans feel the need to speak for the people who actually play the game at the highest level?

Yeah man, this would be literally the first time fans (you included) spoke for players or what they thought was best for them/the team/the NHL. Crazy stuff happening right at this very moment.

[bluejays]

One thing to add is the lawsuits adding up and the concussion history in all sports means that there are warnings and precedents being set over time. If you don't think any of these non-combat sports want to minimize this stuff, you'd be wrong. It just simply doesn't make sense to pay increased insurance premiums, or have players sit out when fans pay good money to see them perform. That's just on the business side. The NHL probably doesn't want to admit fault to pay out families affected but they're surely not sitting on their hands.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Sure, it’s sensible. Who says it isn’t? It’s the context it usually comes in that’s the issue I’m pointing out. Some guy accidentally runs into a player? Yeah man, keep your head up. Someone gets blown up by a high hit? I don’t know, maybe that’s not a great time.

There is a certain type of guy who watches a player get a head injury from a predatory hit and places the balance of blame on the victim. It’s really stupid. It’s always “keep your head up” for the victim and “hockey is fast! it’s a split second decision!” like, as if the hitter should get more of a break for being predatory than the victim should get for being careless. I’ve got no respect for that bloodthirsty way of looking at a sport that’s a lot more than head punching and predatory hits. Those guys should just go watch their Rock Em Sock Em tapes and be gone imo.



It’s actually the fault of the person who KO’s him. That’s generally how these things work. It’s not like staking head-first into the boards, it’s another person that takes an action they could avoid that causes the issue.



Yeah man, this would be literally the first time fans (you included) spoke for players or what they thought was best for them/the team/the NHL. Crazy stuff happening right at this very moment.

There is a lot of real estate between accidentally running into someone and a high predatory hit. You only see those two types of bodychecks?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

There is a lot of real estate between accidentally running into someone and a high predatory hit. You only see those two types of bodychecks?

No. One is an example of where “keep your head up” is completely fair and the other is an example of when it isn’t appropriate. I don’t think I suggested that those are the only two body checks in hockey?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

No. One is an example of where “keep your head up” is completely fair and the other is an example of when it isn’t appropriate. I don’t think I suggested that those are the only two body checks in hockey?

Sure but those are easy examples and are they really what is debated? Does anyone want accidental hits taken out of the game? “Keeping your head up” applies to a whole lot of contact in open ice. Most of which I want to remain, not just accidental hits.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Sure but those are easy examples and are they really what is debated? Does anyone want accidental hits taken out of the game? “Keeping your head up” applies to a whole lot of contact in open ice. Most of which I want to remain, not just accidental hits.

I think you’re missing the point, which has nothing to do with eliminating things where “keep your head up” fairly applies, but that it’s absurd when people say things like “keep your head up” on obviously predatory hits where the majority of the damage is the fault of the hitter.

Hits that should be eliminated from the game, imo.

You have a poster in this thread saying it’s a player’s fault for getting KO’d by a predatory, violent hit. People leave logic behind because they’re just here for the violence. They wouldn’t care if a player dies on the ice, so why would they care if players die younger after retirement? As long as they have their entertainment.

It’s gross. You don’t agree?

[Samonadreau]

Theres no enforcers in the game today. Ban fighting if you want but the days of enforcers are over. Its a different game and fights happen less often but still have a place. maybe I'm old-school.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I think you’re missing the point, which has nothing to do with eliminating things where “keep your head up” fairly applies, but that it’s absurd when people say things like “keep your head up” on obviously predatory hits where the majority of the damage is the fault of the hitter.

Hits that should be eliminated from the game, imo.

You have a poster in this thread saying it’s a player’s fault for getting KO’d by a predatory, violent hit. People leave logic behind because they’re just here for the violence. They wouldn’t care if a player dies on the ice, so why would they care if players die younger after retirement? As long as they have their entertainment.

It’s gross. You don’t agree?

If people really are advocating for deaths on the ice then flame away at them for sure. But saying you should keep your head up when carrying the puck in open ice is not the same as blaming a player a player for getting knocked unconscious. I don’t think the “keep your head up” crowd is looking to see players killed.

You brought up the accidental hits example. I don’t really see the relevance.

Let’s put it this way. Do you want intentional open ice hits or not?

[DeluxeMoustache]

I think Pepsi’s comments apply to hits like those delivered by Jacob Trouba on Timo Meier

I don’t think many people are enjoying some of his hits, nor do I think such hits are essential to the game

Big miss there in my opinion. Meier is vulnerable. To watch it is sickening. They should figure out how to eliminate that

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by midniteowl

I agree with this, but what about a dirty, predatory hit and not being penalized? I don't agree with fighting for the sake of fighting, but is the refs / league not protecting the players from predatory hits, players have to regulate themselves? I still think that Trouba hit was predatory, but refs, league, fans all thought that was clean. So, IDK.

I agree with you, but no two people will agree on what a predatory hit is and what a clean hit is. I think reasonable people can disagree given an example.

Also, isn’t fighting already banned? Like holding, spearing, embellishment, interference, etc. They all still happen. If you want to change how it’s penalized, that’s kind of a different argument.