23/24 Flames

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Teroy

I think if we move Vladar we'll look back on it as a mistake. Those of you who are supporting Markstrom are doing so on a hope and a prayer. Sutter just dumped Vladar in when Makstrom pooped the bed and you expected him to stand on his head and spit pucks. Given a proper chance, shown some confidence in him, Vladar would be a very good goaltender.

Personally I think if a team wants to take a flyer on Markstrom and you don't have to retain then I'd have no issue with doing that. Even if he does bounce back I don't think he's going to be consistently good these final three seasons of this deal. The team needs to get younger and if I'm the GM this is what I'd do:

Forwards:

Move Toffoli 50% retained, Backlund 50% retained, Re-sign Lindholm to 8 x $8.5M (same contract as Mika Zibanejad).

Huberdeau-Lindholm-Coronato
Mangiapane - Kadri - Phillips
Pelletier - Dube - Coleman
??? - Zary - Duehr
Rooney

Defense:

Move Tanev 50% Retained, Re-sign Hanifin to 8 x $7.0, Re-sign Stetcher to 2 x $1.5

Hanifin-Andersson
Kylington - Weegar
Zadorov - Stetcher
Gilbert - ???

Goalie:

Trade Markstrom, Re-call Wolf

Wolf
Vladar

You'd potentially have younger assets that you return in the deals for Toffoli, Backlund, and Tanev too...but I don't hate that roster. Probably would be a playoff bubble team just like this season but with more upside based on some of the picks / prospects you return for the guys you moved out.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by browntrout

This has to be one of the most dysfunctional organizations I have ever been a fan off. Press conference declaring "we want to be a championship team". Complete lip service to try and get fans to the dome.... championship teams are built through the draft, you have to go through painful years, draft high and sign your young core players to long term commitments, this team has none of those key ingredients

Just complete lip service...this team actually has no intention to be a championship team. Murray Edwards clearly only cares about misleading his fan base so that he can sell tickets...because they might get into the playoffs...

Hope all you season ticket holders are excited

I think you've walked a little too far out on the plank.

Assuming an owner that has invested in the team doesn't want to win? That's pretty unlikely.

He may not see it the way you and most fans do, but that isn't equal to misleading the fan base or having not intention to be a championship team.

[camm13]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Tanevs injury history would make him expendable but what value does he have on the trade market?

You keep Lindholm and Hanifin. Top 4 of Weegar Andersson Hanifin and Kylington.

Toffoli is interesting because he signed a relatively cap friendly deal in Montreal woukd he do the same here? Does keeping him clog up the right side with Coronato?

They also need to decide on Mangiapane is he a one year wonder.

No doubt whatever gm comes in will be dealing with a pile of ish.

I don't think he would, he mentioned in an interview that was a bad year UFA wise. Cap didn't go up much and teams had no money. Yes, he wanted to be in Montreal but he didn't get paid the way he thought he would. This is last chance to sign a decent contract. As much as I love the guy, Flames can't lock in another 30 plus year old. He obviously wouldn't be looking at 8 year deals, but even 4 is risky. Had a career year, most likely will not repeat. Time to sell.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think you've walked a little too far out on the plank.

Assuming an owner that has invested in the team doesn't want to win? That's pretty unlikely.

He may not see it the way you and most fans do, but that isn't equal to misleading the fan base or having not intention to be a championship team.

The owner wants to not lose money.

That’s why they go playoffs or bust every year.

He can’t want to win that badly if he refuses to build his team the way the Penguins, Capitals, Lightning, Blackhawks, Kings and Avalanche built theirs.

[browntrout]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think you've walked a little too far out on the plank.

Assuming an owner that has invested in the team doesn't want to win? That's pretty unlikely.

He may not see it the way you and most fans do, but that isn't equal to misleading the fan base or having not intention to be a championship team.

Look at all the other team owners that came out and said there teams were rebuilding when they had some intellectual honestly about the current status of their team (rangers, Chicago, Anaheim, Edmonton, etc, etc.)

This owner is clearly unwilling to go down this path and anything he does/approve s clearly going to align with his business philosophy.

He may think they are a championship team, but the results from the last 30+ years say otherwise.

He operates with the "small market" team mentality, and the results seem to support.

If he truely wants a championship team, then act like it, and be a voice of change, so that small market teams can survive. Fair or unfair as I get there are variables the owner can't change, but don't state you want to be a championship team, if your philosophy and actions contradict how championship teams are built and run

[InternationalVillager]

I think a lot of people in this thread will sing a different tune next year when Huberdeau has a big bounce back from his 55 point season this year.

People are not putting that into expectations. I have no doubt he will be back to the 80-100 point range next year.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by browntrout

Look at all the other team owners that came out and said there teams were rebuilding when they had some intellectual honestly about the current status of their team (rangers, Chicago, Anaheim, Edmonton, etc, etc.)

I must have missed that memo. Hell, I don't recall it with NYR either.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by browntrout

Look at all the other team owners that came out and said there teams were rebuilding when they had some intellectual honestly about the current status of their team (rangers, Chicago, Anaheim, Edmonton, etc, etc.)

This owner is clearly unwilling to go down this path and anything he does/approve s clearly going to align with his business philosophy.

He may think they are a championship team, but the results from the last 30+ years say otherwise.

He operates with the "small market" team mentality, and the results seem to support.

If he truely wants a championship team, then act like it, and be a voice of change, so that small market teams can survive. Fair or unfair as I get there are variables the owner can't change, but don't state you want to be a championship team, if your philosophy and actions contradict how championship teams are built and run

I hear you.

But you're still just outlining that you think differently than him, not that he doesn't want to win.

Guy spends to the cap every year.

Just think it's a leap to make an assumption of the man's goals when they don't really add up to his actions.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

The owner wants to not lose money.

That’s why they go playoffs or bust every year.

He can’t want to win that badly if he refuses to build his team the way the Penguins, Capitals, Lightning, Blackhawks, Kings and Avalanche built theirs.

I'm not defending how he thinks things ...

But if he wanted to not lose money he could just spend x% less on player salaries and go with the coach he had and keep his $8.4M

[Rollin22x]

Originally Posted by boogerz

This is the current team with an $83.5M cap and -0.439M in cap space. The only two-way contracts are Pelletier and Coronato.


Huberdeau ($10.5M) - Lindholm ($4.85M) - Dube ($2.3M)
Mangiapane ($5.8M) - Backlund ($5.35M) - Coleman ($4.9M)
Toffoli ($4.25M) - Kadri ($7.0M) - Coronato ($0.93M)
Pelletier ($0.86M) - Ruzicka ($0.76M) - Duehr ($8.25M)
??? (???)


Weegar ($6.25M) - Andersson ($4.55M)
Hanifin ($4.95M) - Tanev ($4.50M)
Kylington ($2.50M) - Zadorov ($3.75M)
Gilbert ($0.76M)


Markstrom ($6.0M)
Vladar ($2.2M)
______________________________________________

It's still a good and deep roster on paper, so I wouldn't change much until the new coach (Mitch Love?) has a chance to get a feel for the team.


I would:

• Sell high on Toffoli at the draft or during the off-season to secure picks/prospects, for cap-compliancy, and to free up cap space for the last roster spot or two.
• Re-sign Phillips to a two-way contract for league min (and $400k AHL salary) and give him a real shot in the NHL as the 11th forward
• Sign someone like Glendening or Bellemare to a one-year contract as the 13th forward, and to add a speedy, gritty, and veteran defensive presence

Depending on how the season goes and Love's feel on the team, then decide whether to liquidate assets (e.g. Lindholm, Hanifin, Tanev, Zadorov, Backlund) at the trade deadline.

That's too much for Duehr!

[Savvy27]

GM: Craig Conroy
Coach: Jukka Jalonen (Finnish national team coach - Olympic Gold and Bronze, World Championship Gold x3, World Junior Gold)

This would be my plan assuming that Elias Lindholm refuses to negotiate an extension prior to the season:

YEAR ONE

Trade Lindholm to Columbus for 2024 1st Round Pick and Liam Foudy
Trade Hanifin to Detroit for 2023 2nd Round Pick and 2024 1st Round Pick (Boston)
Re-Sign Matthew Phillips ($800,000) and Troy Stecher ($1,250,000)
Trade Dan Vladar for a 4th Round Pick

Draft 2023: 1x1st, 2x2nd, 1x3, 2x4, 1x6, 1x7

Huberdeau Kadri Toffoli
Mangiapane Backlund Coleman
Pelletier Dube Duehr
Foudy Ruzicka Coronato/Phillips

Very low end first line unfortunately, but every other line is fast. Jalonen is an expert at getting teams with less skill to work together and play hard.

Weegar Andersson
Kylington Tanev
Zadorov Stecher
Gilbert

I like this defensive group a lot and I would consider them top 15 pretty easily.

Markstrom (who knows what we'll get from this guy)
Wolf (20 games maybe?)

Salary Cap Space: $7.9M

TDL: Assuming that the team is out of the playoff picture, trade Backlund, Toffoli, Tanev for futures and take on bad contracts (ending that season) if necessary. Then utilize the massive amount of cap space from the season and the trades to make space for other contenders to add players.

Draft 2024: 3x1st, 1x2, 1x3, 1x4, 1x6 PLUS Trade deadline haul, which should include another 1st and some second round picks at least.

YEAR TWO

LW
Huberdeau 30
Mangiapane 28
Pelletier 23
Foudy 24

C
Kadri 33
Dube 25
Ruzicka 24
Zary 22

RW
Coronato 21
Coleman 32
Duehr 26
Phillips 26

D
Weegar 30
Andersson 27
Kylington 26 (extended)
Zadorov 28 (extended)
Poirier 21
Stecher 30

G
Markstrom 34
Wolf 23

At this point the team would have added seven 1st and 2nd round picks to the prospect pool. They would have NHL calibre players 4 deep at LW, 3 deep at C, 3 deep at RW, 5 deep on D, and a solid tandem in net.

Then they have $35M+ cap space to add through free agency or they could have used some of those draft picks to acquire some talent at center and right wing.

It would be one relatively painful season, but man would it ever clear out a lot of older players and give the Flames a much brighter future. Given how solid the D core is (assuming Kylington and Zadorov stay), I think the Flames would be back to a competitive level in 2024-25 and hopeful that some of the higher picks are ready to step in.

[Lanny_McDonald]

If you're trading Lindholm to Columbus you're targeting Sillinger or Johnson. Foudy would be a terrible return for your top center. The draft picks are fine, but this is the draft you want them in. Give Columbus credit, they recognized this draft was quality and loaded up with 11 picks. They have potential to really turn their fortunes around in the next couple of years. Some nice pieces there.

Kadri is a second line center. If he's forced into that number one slot, like Sutter tried, we're in a world of hurt. The guy just doesn't have the skill to play on the top line. Couldn't use a winger to save his life.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

If you're trading Lindholm to Columbus you're targeting Sillinger or Johnson. Foudy would be a terrible return for your top center. The draft picks are fine, but this is the draft you want them in. Give Columbus credit, they recognized this draft was quality and loaded up with 11 picks. They have potential to really turn their fortunes around in the next couple of years. Some nice pieces there.

Kadri is a second line center. If he's forced into that number one slot, like Sutter tried, we're in a world of hurt. The guy just doesn't have the skill to play on the top line. Couldn't use a winger to save his life.

100% Agree

If you're moving Lindholm you want a young forward (ideally a center) back as part of the package.

LA: Byfield
CBJ: Sillinger or Johnson
CAR: Jarvis (or maybe Kotkaniemi who actually profiles similar to young Lindholm)
MIN: Rossi
BUF: Krebs

I actually think the best use of Kadri is to play him with two wrecking balls that drive the net and create screens. Wouldn't mind seeing Coleman, Duehr and Kadri as a line to be honest.

[Savvy27]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

If you're trading Lindholm to Columbus you're targeting Sillinger or Johnson. Foudy would be a terrible return for your top center. The draft picks are fine, but this is the draft you want them in. Give Columbus credit, they recognized this draft was quality and loaded up with 11 picks. They have potential to really turn their fortunes around in the next couple of years. Some nice pieces there.

I don't disagree, but the suggested return was Foudy + 1st. Sillinger might be possible, but I don't think that Kent Johnson would ever be on the table for 1 year of Elias Lindholm.

Kadri is a second line center. If he's forced into that number one slot, like Sutter tried, we're in a world of hurt. The guy just doesn't have the skill to play on the top line. Couldn't use a winger to save his life.

I agree that he's not a first line center, but he's a better offensive player than Backlund and I don't think there is anyone who fits the role on the roster. Lindholm refusing to sign an extension would be devastating for the near-term fortune of this team.

If Lindholm is gone after this season, then they either have to go out and acquire a competent first line C or they need to strip things down, acquire assets, and draft or trade for one. My opinion is that the best time to start rebuilding was at the trade deadline and the second best time is at the upcoming draft (in retrospect the best time may have been last summer, but I was excited about the trades and signings and it just didn't work out as hoped).

[Savvy27]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

100% Agree

If you're moving Lindholm you want a young forward (ideally a center) back as part of the package.

LA: Byfield
CBJ: Sillinger or Johnson
CAR: Jarvis (or maybe Kotkaniemi who actually profiles similar to young Lindholm)
MIN: Rossi
BUF: Krebs

I actually think the best use of Kadri is to play him with two wrecking balls that drive the net and create screens. Wouldn't mind seeing Coleman, Duehr and Kadri as a line to be honest.

Are you guys picturing a sign and trade? I must see the value of 1 year of Elias Lindholm as quite a bit lower. I don't think there is a chance to get Byfield, Johnson, or Jarvis, let alone them as part of a package.

Some of the other guys I could see, although I'd prefer Foudy + 1st to them.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

Are you guys picturing a sign and trade? I must see the value of 1 year of Elias Lindholm as quite a bit lower. I don't think there is a chance to get Byfield, Johnson, or Jarvis, let alone them as part of a package.

Some of the other guys I could see, although I'd prefer Foudy + 1st to them.

I think if you move in the offseason and not as a rental, and you retain 50% then it's possible.

A full season of Lindholm at $2.5M cap hit should have big value. I do think Jarvis is a stretch but you never know.

I'd also be willing to let team negotiate an extension before the deal too.

[Lanny_McDonald]

I would imagine that any team that trades for Lindholm would already be aware of the likelihood of him signing a contract extension in the near future.

Foudy and a 2024 1st is still a pretty bad return. It's all a roll of the dice on the pick turning into something worthwhile, and 2024 is rumored to be a weak draft. Foudy is a 4th liner and could be replaced from within the Flame's system. Adam Ruzicka is already a better player for example. I don't see any upside in the acquisition of Foudy other than he's a body that can sort of play in the NHL. I'd look elsewhere and expect a much better return. You can get a deal better than this one at the deadline.

[HockeyKhan]

Originally Posted by Teroy

TRADE
Backlund Lindholm Kadri Markstrom

No particular position
FORWARDS
Pelletier Huberdeau Coronato
Dube Mandiapane Toffoli
Rusicka Zary Duehr

Possibles

?????? Coleman ??????
Lewis???

DEFENCE
Gilbert Andersson
Zadorov Weegar
Hanifin Stecher
Stone DeSimone

GOALTENDERS
Vladar Wolf

GM
Conroy

Coach
Love

Guess I haven't fully woken up yet. I was trying to figure out who the hell Gilbert Anderson was...

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

Are you guys picturing a sign and trade? I must see the value of 1 year of Elias Lindholm as quite a bit lower. I don't think there is a chance to get Byfield, Johnson, or Jarvis, let alone them as part of a package.

Some of the other guys I could see, although I'd prefer Foudy + 1st to them.

I'm with you, I think your package for straight futures is about what could expect with no cap coming back, a 1st and meh prospect. Sillinger might be in play because of a poor second season I guess.

If Lindholm goes I think it is still in a re-tool trade versus futures.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I think if you move in the offseason and not as a rental, and you retain 50% then it's possible.

A full season of Lindholm at $2.5M cap hit should have big value. I do think Jarvis is a stretch but you never know.

I'd also be willing to let team negotiate an extension before the deal too.

When has a team ate that much salary on a useful player for a full season to make a trade?

The Preds ate like 12% of Eckholms deal to trade off a soon to be 33 year old useful guy with 3 years of term, and the Sharks ate 25% of 37 year old Burns for 3 years. But in both cases those teams were trying to shed longer term deals to rebuild. Lindholm is prime age with one year left, teams will send you a lesser two million dollar guy to offset the cost.

Until a good player on a good contract is traded for the duration of a full season...I consider this talk to be fan boy nonsense.

If the Flames trade Lindholm before the season starts it will be the full contract. If it's a deadline move than yeah there could be salary retention twice to fit him in on a team going for it.