Can a mini rebuild be done and is this the perfect year to do it?

[SeanCharles]

The dumbest thing we did this last offseason was signing Kadri.

I don't mind the player but a 7 year term was absolute lunacy.

I can forgive the Huberdeau and Weegar contracts but Kadri was a massive mistake the moment it was signed.

This franchise tried to do a bunch of patch work after Gaudreau and Tkachuk forced their hand and it clearly was a terrible miscue.

What team has won a Cup with a bunch of overpriced 30 years olds in the salary cap era?

None, the answer is none.

Anyways, I agree that last offseason was the real opportunity to rebuild but this offseason isn't a bad consolation.

Lindholm
Toffoli
Backlund
Hanifin
Tanev
Zadorov

These could all be guys we consider moving with expiring deals.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

The dumbest thing we did this last offseason was signing Kadri.

I don't mind the player but a 7 year term was absolute lunacy.

I can forgive the Huberdeau and Weegar contracts but Kadri was a massive mistake the moment it was signed.

This franchise tried to do a bunch of patch work after Gaudreau and Tkachuk forced their hand and it clearly was a terrible miscue.

What team has won a Cup with a bunch of overpriced 30 years olds in the salary cap era?

None, the answer is none.

Anyways, I agree that last offseason was the real opportunity to rebuild but this offseason isn't a bad consolation.

Lindholm
Toffoli
Backlund
Hanifin
Tanev
Zadorov

These could all be guys we consider moving with expiring deals.

The Kadri signing needs to be taken in context. They got two really good players back for Tkachuk, but the price was that those players were older. And the core of the team is already there, and not getting younger - key players including Tanev, Markstrom and Backlund at 33/34 as well as Toffoli at 30 and Lindholm at 28. Also, they have Sutter behind the bench.

In short: their window is now. And acquiring Huberdeau and Weegar only made it more so.

So they decided to throw all their chips in and go get Kadri too. On paper, many (most) had the Flames as legitimate contenders, and more than a few picked them to win the cup. So it wasn't the worst decision, and the plan would have been to go for it now, and deal with the long term contracts later. Which, IMO, wasn't a bad plan, considering where they were in the team's life cycle.

Sure, in hindsight, this season didn't work out, and now we have the long term contracts, WITHOUT the cup contention that we were supposed to have. But at the time, it wasn't a bad plan.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The Kadri signing needs to be taken in context. They got two really good players back for Tkachuk, but the price was that those players were older. And the core of the team is already there, and not getting younger - key players including Tanev, Markstrom and Backlund at 33/34 as well as Toffoli at 30 and Lindholm at 28. Also, they have Sutter behind the bench.

In short: their window is now. And acquiring Huberdeau and Weegar only made it more so.

So they decided to throw all their chips in and go get Kadri too. On paper, many (most) had the Flames as legitimate contenders, and more than a few picked them to win the cup. So it wasn't the worst decision, and the plan would have been to go for it now, and deal with the long term contracts later. Which, IMO, wasn't a bad plan, considering where they were in the team's life cycle.

Sure, in hindsight, this season didn't work out, and now we have the long term contracts, WITHOUT the cup contention that we were supposed to have. But at the time, it wasn't a bad plan.

Other than a complete rebuild, it was the only plan.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The Kadri signing needs to be taken in context. They got two really good players back for Tkachuk, but the price was that those players were older. And the core of the team is already there, and not getting younger - key players including Tanev, Markstrom and Backlund at 33/34 as well as Toffoli at 30 and Lindholm at 28. Also, they have Sutter behind the bench.

In short: their window is now. And acquiring Huberdeau and Weegar only made it more so.

So they decided to throw all their chips in and go get Kadri too. On paper, many (most) had the Flames as legitimate contenders, and more than a few picked them to win the cup. So it wasn't the worst decision, and the plan would have been to go for it now, and deal with the long term contracts later. Which, IMO, wasn't a bad plan, considering where they were in the team's life cycle.

Sure, in hindsight, this season didn't work out, and now we have the long term contracts, WITHOUT the cup contention that we were supposed to have. But at the time, it wasn't a bad plan.

This team isn't that far off either. Just need to find a way to keep the key players and draft and develop some better depth.

Probably need 1 prospect forward to be a top line caliber player too.

Wolf needs to get a crack so 1 of Markstrom or Vladar needs to go.

I'd love to see a rebuild too and if guys want out it may happen. But if they keep it together, they need to look at moving out one of the following:

Backlund
Tofolli
Mangiapane
Markstrom
Vladar
Tanev
Hanifin

Good players but age or contracts makes them more expendable IMO.

Might need a coach that is willing to work with young players too because we need these guys to play and get growth from our prospects.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

There is also 11 teams that could get Bedard. 6 of those 11 teams, if they get him likely are better than the Flames are next year.

Philly
Vancouver
Washington
Detroit
St Louis
Columbus

I also think Fantilli is likely to be a instant impact player. Any of those 6 teams get him they likely are better than the Flames. Especially if Lindholm wants out and is moved. Can't replace him at that salary and their cap situation.

Lol Columbus! I'll take that bet

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The Kadri signing needs to be taken in context. They got two really good players back for Tkachuk, but the price was that those players were older. And the core of the team is already there, and not getting younger - key players including Tanev, Markstrom and Backlund at 33/34 as well as Toffoli at 30 and Lindholm at 28. Also, they have Sutter behind the bench.

In short: their window is now. And acquiring Huberdeau and Weegar only made it more so.

So they decided to throw all their chips in and go get Kadri too. On paper, many (most) had the Flames as legitimate contenders, and more than a few picked them to win the cup. So it wasn't the worst decision, and the plan would have been to go for it now, and deal with the long term contracts later. Which, IMO, wasn't a bad plan, considering where they were in the team's life cycle.

Sure, in hindsight, this season didn't work out, and now we have the long term contracts, WITHOUT the cup contention that we were supposed to have. But at the time, it wasn't a bad plan.

Considering we need to fill at least 3 roster spots for next season and have <$400K in cap space to do so I don't really understand how it can't be viewed as a bad plan. This would be running bare bones with 13F, 7D and 2G.

Basically we are already going to have to subtract a significant player from the roster in order to be cap compliant, if we want to ice a full roster each night, next season.

Even if we wanted to run 12F, 6D and 2G, since the farm team is local, there still isn't enough cap space for that as of now so we basically locked in all that money for one year of the current roster. As such, next season we will have less depth and no room to add to the roster without sending money out.

I get the logic of putting all the chips in but this team was not constructed properly. As I said before, you don't win with a bunch of 30 year old players you are paying big value contracts to who earned those contracts playing for other franchises.

I was never behind it and everyone thought I was being pessimistic last offseason and repeated much of what you mention in your post but it seemed like a desperation play to me.

Treliving has never paid anyone more than what Tkachuk got on his last contract at $7mill. Hell not a single player I can remember got paid more than $7mill here as that is what Iggy got all those years ago but he signs a 32 year old 2nd line C for that and gives him the term he has never dished out to anyone else either?

Then he gives max term and dollar contracts to Weegar and Huberdeau who had never played a single game here either?

We pay all this money for what these players did in other organizations even though those very organizations wouldn't pay what it took themselves? We give out all this money and term we never gave out to anyone who actual grew up and developed in our organization?

I hope you don't take this as a personal attack cause I am just venting but I don't know how that wasn't a bad plan?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

Considering we need to fill at least 3 roster spots for next season and have <$400K in cap space to do so I don't really understand how it can't be viewed as a bad plan. This would be running bare bones with 13F, 7D and 2G.

Basically we are already going to have to subtract a significant player from the roster in order to be cap compliant, if we want to ice a full roster each night, next season.

Even if we wanted to run 12F, 6D and 2G, since the farm team is local, there still isn't enough cap space for that as of now so we basically locked in all that money for one year of the current roster. As such, next season we will have less depth and no room to add to the roster without sending money out.

I get the logic of putting all the chips in but this team was not constructed properly. As I said before, you don't win with a bunch of 30 year old players you are paying big value contracts to who earned those contracts playing for other franchises.

I was never behind it and everyone thought I was being pessimistic last offseason and repeated much of what you mention in your post but it seemed like a desperation play to me.

Treliving has never paid anyone more than what Tkachuk got on his last contract at $7mill. Hell not a single player I can remember got paid more than $7mill here as that is what Iggy got all those years ago but he signs a 32 year old 2nd line C for that and gives him the term he has never dished out to anyone else either?

Then he gives max term and dollar contracts to Weegar and Huberdeau who had never played a single game here either?

We pay all this money for what these players did in other organizations even though those very organizations wouldn't pay what it took themselves? We give out all this money and term we never gave out to anyone who actual grew up and developed in our organization?

I hope you don't take this as a personal attack cause I am just venting but I don't know how that wasn't a bad plan?

There was no personal attack - you were simply making your case. And your points are valid.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Lol Columbus! I'll take that bet

See the NJ Devils and their 63 points last season. 0 vision on what has happened in Columbus. If they get Bedard we can revisit this.

[Enoch Root]

The Devils are interesting...

Started the season 21-4-1. Since then:

12) NJD: 51G, 27-17-7, 61 pts
13) CGY: 52G, 24-16-12, 60 pts

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The Devils are interesting...

Started the season 21-4-1. Since then:

12) NJD: 51G, 27-17-7, 61 pts
13) CGY: 52G, 24-16-12, 60 pts

So minus their amazing 26 game stretch they are still better than the Flames? The last 51 games is still 98-point pace.

I'm not suggesting that Columbus will be the Bruins next year but being better than the 16th overall Flames isn't that unrealistic. Part of my post was the Flames could slip with some of the turmoil with the team.

Columbus had 81 points last year and added Gaudreau. Injuries have been a huge part of why they suck. So being healthier and adding Bedard, it's very possible they put up 90-95 next year. Are we saying the Flames are a lock to be 95+ next year?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

So minus their amazing 26 game stretch they are still better than the Flames? The last 51 games is still 98-point pace.

I'm not suggesting that Columbus will be the Bruins next year but being better than the 16th overall Flames isn't that unrealistic. Part of my post was the Flames could slip with some of the turmoil with the team.

Columbus had 81 points last year and added Gaudreau. Injuries have been a huge part of why they suck. So being healthier and adding Bedard, it's very possible they put up 90-95 next year. Are we saying the Flames are a lock to be 95+ next year?

Yes

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yes

You're calling it before we see how the off-season unfolds? Very interesting that you're that confident they will improve without knowing how things will unfold. I guess what the odds are anyone circles back to this topic 6 months from now?

[Groot]

Originally Posted by SeanCharles

Considering we need to fill at least 3 roster spots for next season and have <$400K in cap space to do so I don't really understand how it can't be viewed as a bad plan. This would be running bare bones with 13F, 7D and 2G.

Basically we are already going to have to subtract a significant player from the roster in order to be cap compliant, if we want to ice a full roster each night, next season.

Even if we wanted to run 12F, 6D and 2G, since the farm team is local, there still isn't enough cap space for that as of now so we basically locked in all that money for one year of the current roster. As such, next season we will have less depth and no room to add to the roster without sending money out.

It really isn't even as close to as bad as you're making it seem. All numbers below from Capfriendly as of today using cap space available and the listed roster players for next year.

Vladar is likely gone next year to make room for Wolf. Net gain of $1,386,667 for $1,773,334 cap space. Or Markstrom goes and *poof* all cap issues gone. Assume Vladar leaves.

Kylington still on the roster counting against that cap. If he plays, you move someone like Zadorov. Or if he doesn't play you work to get his cap space back. Gain between $2.5 and $3.75 in Cap. Or both Kylington and Zadorov stay and you trade Hanifin. A defenseman leaves next year with a goalie and we have all the cap space we need without making the team worse (probably improves it).

Coronato, Pelletier, Ruzicka, Duehr, Gilbert are full-time players next year. Only Duehr needs a new contract, and the other 4 are already included in the cap space above according to CapFriendly.

Re-sign Duehr, Stecher around $1.25 and Stone at league minimum. Stone on a 2-way. Adds $2.5 million to NHL Cap hit. Cap Space remaining $1.73 million for a 13th forward.

Huberdeau - Lindholm - Toffoli
Mangiapne - Kadri - Coronato
Pelletier - Backlund - Coleman
Ruzicka - Dube - Duehr
???

Weegar - Andersson
Hanifin - Tanev
Zadorov - Stecher
Gilbert

Markstrom
Wolf

Now I am not advocating that they do exactly this, but it's very easy to see ways to work with the cap space next year. The following year is when it's a total crapshoot with all the key UFA's and what to do there. I've been having some happy hour drinks but I think the math above is close anyway lol.

[Jason14h]

Or trade Mangi to clear space if you need it and give the spot to a kid

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Groot

It really isn't even as close to as bad as you're making it seem. All numbers below from Capfriendly as of today using cap space available and the listed roster players for next year.

Vladar is likely gone next year to make room for Wolf. Net gain of $1,386,667 for $1,773,334 cap space. Or Markstrom goes and *poof* all cap issues gone. Assume Vladar leaves.

Kylington still on the roster counting against that cap. If he plays, you move someone like Zadorov. Or if he doesn't play you work to get his cap space back. Gain between $2.5 and $3.75 in Cap. Or both Kylington and Zadorov stay and you trade Hanifin. A defenseman leaves next year with a goalie and we have all the cap space we need without making the team worse (probably improves it).

Coronato, Pelletier, Ruzicka, Duehr, Gilbert are full-time players next year. Only Duehr needs a new contract, and the other 4 are already included in the cap space above according to CapFriendly.

Re-sign Duehr, Stecher around $1.25 and Stone at league minimum. Stone on a 2-way. Adds $2.5 million to NHL Cap hit. Cap Space remaining $1.73 million for a 13th forward.

Huberdeau - Lindholm - Toffoli
Mangiapne - Kadri - Coronato
Pelletier - Backlund - Coleman
Ruzicka - Dube - Duehr
???

Weegar - Andersson
Hanifin - Tanev
Zadorov - Stecher
Gilbert

Markstrom
Wolf

Now I am not advocating that they do exactly this, but it's very easy to see ways to work with the cap space next year. The following year is when it's a total crapshoot with all the key UFA's and what to do there. I've been having some happy hour drinks but I think the math above is close anyway lol.

This is a very realistic scenario for the Flames next off-season. But the pending UFA stuff is where things will get tricky. Do we go into next year with 5 key UFA's not signed? Do these 5 players want to stay? Do we want to add more long-term deals for players 32-35 years old in age? Do we trade them if they don't sign before the season starts?

If Treliving is the GM, I could see him going into the season with 5 guys unsigned.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

You're calling it before we see how the off-season unfolds? Very interesting that you're that confident they will improve without knowing how things will unfold. I guess what the odds are anyone circles back to this topic 6 months from now?

You've been making multiple predictions about other teams, but the moment I make a prediction about the Flames, you call me out for being bold. I think your bias is showing.

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Groot

It really isn't even as close to as bad as you're making it seem. All numbers below from Capfriendly as of today using cap space available and the listed roster players for next year.

Vladar is likely gone next year to make room for Wolf. Net gain of $1,386,667 for $1,773,334 cap space. Or Markstrom goes and *poof* all cap issues gone. Assume Vladar leaves.

Kylington still on the roster counting against that cap. If he plays, you move someone like Zadorov. Or if he doesn't play you work to get his cap space back. Gain between $2.5 and $3.75 in Cap. Or both Kylington and Zadorov stay and you trade Hanifin. A defenseman leaves next year with a goalie and we have all the cap space we need without making the team worse (probably improves it).

Coronato, Pelletier, Ruzicka, Duehr, Gilbert are full-time players next year. Only Duehr needs a new contract, and the other 4 are already included in the cap space above according to CapFriendly.

Re-sign Duehr, Stecher around $1.25 and Stone at league minimum. Stone on a 2-way. Adds $2.5 million to NHL Cap hit. Cap Space remaining $1.73 million for a 13th forward.

Huberdeau - Lindholm - Toffoli
Mangiapne - Kadri - Coronato
Pelletier - Backlund - Coleman
Ruzicka - Dube - Duehr
???

Weegar - Andersson
Hanifin - Tanev
Zadorov - Stecher
Gilbert

Markstrom
Wolf

Now I am not advocating that they do exactly this, but it's very easy to see ways to work with the cap space next year. The following year is when it's a total crapshoot with all the key UFA's and what to do there. I've been having some happy hour drinks but I think the math above is close anyway lol.

I’m not disagreeing that swapping Vladar for Wolf and/or trading Zadorov if Kylington comes back and/or having Kylington’s cap removed if he doesn’t won’t essentially be a wash but it doesn’t mean we are any better. We will just have less depth, will still not have the ability to add to the group and key players will be one year older.

We are barely a playoff team now, how do we take that next step to become Cup contenders or even a top team if guys like Kadri are just going to continue to get older and less effective? I realize if young players take steps it will help in this regard but those young guys will need time. Not only that but players like Lindholm are going to be looking for significant raises if we want to keep them so that means even more subtractions from the current group.

I just hope we don’t continue to make the same mistakes and we figure out all or most of the Lindholm, Toffoli, Backlund, Hanifin and Tanev situations before the season starts because having all or most of those guys unsigned post TDL is catastrophic and proves this organization will never lead us to the promised land until they wake up, face reality and take the necessary steps to actually build a winner.

Continually losing top assets for nothing and just trying to make the playoffs and see what happens is not a proven recipe for success.

[NewFan]

Main problem is the team doesn't have corner stones to quick rebuild.
Most of long term contracts are too old and can't carry the team.
No upcoming corner stone players too. May be Wolf, Coronato and Pelletier. But it's not enough to build elite team.
So I guess they will just try to tweak little bit to compete for playoff income next few years.

I would just do following changes just to make interesting next few years.
Keep GM but find him a good partner who has an eye to find players with skills who can help the team.
Change Sutter and hire Wrangler coach as HC.
Trade Kadri for another bad contact but who can play 3 line shut down C with similar cap hit but less years.
Trade one of Toffoli/Hanifin for this years 1st rounder during draft.
If Lindholm wants out, trade him for a prospect with potential become 1st pairing D.
Trade Mangiapaine for 2024 or 2025 highest draft pick as we will have too many smaller forwards next year and we need cap space and room for Coronato or Pelletier.
Trade Tanev, Toffoli/Hanifin, Zadarov, Coleman, Markstrom during trade deadline for mostly draft pick for 2024 or 2025 and prospects with future.
Extend Backlund, Dube cheaper contract, and play many youngsters as possible.
So we should have 2023 1st rounder 2. 2024 1st 2, 2025 1st 2. A blue chip D prospect.
And I hope in 2025 season we may have future corner stone players like Wolf, Coronato, D prospect (from Lindholm trade) at least 2 more 1st rounder forwards and 1 D prospect.
At least it's better than the current roster.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

There is also 11 teams that could get Bedard. 6 of those 11 teams, if they get him likely are better than the Flames are next year.

Philly
Vancouver
Washington
Detroit
St Louis
Columbus

I also think Fantilli is likely to be a instant impact player. Any of those 6 teams get him they likely are better than the Flames. Especially if Lindholm wants out and is moved. Can't replace him at that salary and their cap situation.

Just remember the NHL is 2 steps up from Juniors. It even took Mcdavid 2 seasons to become a true superstar. Getting Bedard doesnt make a team an instant threat next season.

[Goriders]

I agree with a lot of the above comments. This has easily been the most frustrating Flames team I have watched. Mainly because they have lost so many games in which they were the better team for the majority of the game.

There were numerous issues causing that to occur. Goaltending, Powerplay, Shooting percentage being the biggest ones. But the common theme has been inconsistency. There just seems to be something wrong or missing. The wrong chemistry. But we do have some good players.

I still think with the right moves in the offseason and at next year’s trade deadline the ship can be righted. I don’t think our group of young players is as dire as everyone thinks. We have one of the top AHL teams. Look to have a stud goalie in the system. Duehr, Pelletier, Gilbert, Ruzicka all look like useful pieces. I’m guessing Zary is not far off. Can’t comment on Coronato yet but hope we get to see him down the stretch.

I think our defence is fairly solid. But question the 1 on 1 defensive zone coverage. I also think we have a number of good forwards but lack a high end consistent scorer outside of Toffoli.

Hopefully they can figure it out. Not being in the room it’s hard to know the whole story. But it does look like mainly a chemistry problem to me. Hopefully somehow the organization can figure out how to rejig things to get the chemistry right.