Sutter is the problem

[traptor]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

He’s certainly part of the problem.

But c’mon, this roster is nowhere near good enough.

It’s both the coach and the roster.

Coach, roster construction and the players.
Not much is rightwith his org at the moment

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I don’t really get what the point of this post is. It’s almost like over time things change……….. hmmmm…….

Half the site was on board with it at the time. 219 people. Say anything you want and see if that many people thank it.

It's almost like...there's random variation in hockey?

[Classic_Sniper]

Ah, the classic CP Fire the Coach Thread. This place along with Brad Treliving are absolute coach killers. That’s 5 coaches in 9 seasons and people here are already clamoring for a 6th. Each coach gets like 1.5 seasons before posters here bring out the pitchforks. I still remember the conversations that were being had for years here before Sutter entered the equation?


Fans: We need an NHL calibre coach with a proven track record!
Management: Ok, how about a 2 time Stanley Cup winner and the subsequent reigning Jack Adams award winner?
Fans Today: Oh no, he’s a dinosaur now and the game has passed him by!

Fans: This team doesn’t have an identity!
Management: Ok, let's get a coach who will in-still a no nonsense, hard working identity.
Fans Today: Oh no, the players aren’t having fun anymore and are being tortured.

Fans: No more clubhouse atmosphere!
Management: Ok, how about a hard ass coach then?
Fans Today: Oh no, the hard ass coach is being too hard on the skaters, let's get a player’s coach again.


We’ve basically gone full circle with this endless search for a coach, it’s literally the definition of insanity. This place cried for an “elite” coach 2 years ago and they finally got their wish and now even an elite coach can make this fanbase happy. Like I’ve before, It does not matter who coaches this team, they will have their flaws and this fanbase will somehow unfairly crucify them anyway.

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Ah, the classic CP Fire the Coach Thread. This place along with Brad Treliving are absolute coach killers. That’s 5 coaches in 9 seasons and people here are already clamoring for a 6th. Each coach gets like 1.5 seasons before posters here bring out the pitchforks. I still remember the conversations that were being had for years here before Sutter entered the equation?


Fans: We need an NHL calibre coach with a proven track record!
Management: Ok, how about a 2 time Stanley Cup winner and the subsequent reigning Jack Adams award winner?
Fans Today: Oh no, he’s a dinosaur now and the game has passed him by!

Fans: This team doesn’t have an identity!
Management: Ok, let's get a coach who will in-still a no nonsense, hard working identity.
Fans Today: Oh no, the players aren’t having fun anymore and are being tortured.

Fans: No more clubhouse atmosphere!
Management: Ok, how about a hard ass coach then?
Fans Today: Oh no, the hard ass coach is being too hard on the skaters, let's get a player’s coach again.


We’ve basically gone full circle with this endless search for a coach, it’s literally the definition of insanity. This place cried for an “elite” coach 2 years ago and they finally got their wish and now even an elite coach can make this fanbase happy. Like I’ve before, It does not matter who coaches this team, they will have their flaws and this fanbase will somehow unfairly crucify them anyway.

Such a pithy and overly simplistic argument.

If you want to fling some #### at those arguing for another coaching change, provide some real damning evidence highlighting all the wonderful things that collection of coaches have gone on to achieve since getting fired by the Flames.

That'll show us.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Ah, the classic CP Fire the Coach Thread. This place along with Brad Treliving are absolute coach killers. That’s 5 coaches in 9 seasons and people here are already clamoring for a 6th. Each coach gets like 1.5 seasons before posters here bring out the pitchforks. I still remember the conversations that were being had for years here before Sutter entered the equation?


Fans: We need an NHL calibre coach with a proven track record!
Management: Ok, how about a 2 time Stanley Cup winner and the subsequent reigning Jack Adams award winner?
Fans Today: Oh no, he’s a dinosaur now and the game has passed him by!

Fans: This team doesn’t have an identity!
Management: Ok, let's get a coach who will in-still a no nonsense, hard working identity.
Fans Today: Oh no, the players aren’t having fun anymore and are being tortured.

Fans: No more clubhouse atmosphere!
Management: Ok, how about a hard ass coach then?
Fans Today: Oh no, the hard ass coach is being too hard on the skaters, let's get a player’s coach again.


We’ve basically gone full circle with this endless search for a coach, it’s literally the definition of insanity. This place cried for an “elite” coach 2 years ago and they finally got their wish and now even an elite coach can make this fanbase happy. Like I’ve before, It does not matter who coaches this team, they will have their flaws and this fanbase will somehow unfairly crucify them anyway.

Exactly. 94-61-25 later...let's do it again? If one of those goalposts against Anaheim bounced in, does this thread even exist?

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by just_tim

I posted this a couple days ago on a different thread. I was a huge Sutter supporter, but the game has passed him by and his demenor and stubbornness are fatal flaws:

The game has changed and Sutter is simply behind. It’s a pure speed game now. Man-D does not work. With the speed and criss-cross side-to-side offensive schemes of today’s best offences, man-D means both defenders and the center are always chasing and missing assignments. It leaves goalies naked. Dryden or Roy would look bad in this scheme. It also means the center has to stay out of the dirty offensive areas so he can get back on D. This leads to a simple offence with shots from the outside. Sutter does not read the game well anymore and he loves his big boys, his 4th line favourites. Virtually no in-game adjustments and a dogmatic stubbornness to remain with the plan that hasn’t worked from game 1. It also means that young talent isn’t rotated and evaluated. Wouldn’t matter how good the Wranglers players are, they’re not getting a good look. A new coach would need to be a talent evaluator, a student of the modern game. Use and improve the players, adjust systems to maximize talent and not simply force square pegs into round holes.

How is Sutter behind exactly? He basically coaches playoff style all year round, so if anything, he's probably ahead of the pack in that regard. Conversely, Bill Peters definitely did not coach the right style for playoff hockey, that's why his #1 seeded team was easily destroyed by a #8 seed.

I don't even know if you could say it's a pure speed game now. The St. Louis Blues just won the Stanley Cup a few seasons ago with a similarly slow, grinding, heavy roster.

Also, what is this point about the center not being in the dirty offensive areas even mean? Flames' centers are always in the dirty areas, just look at Lindholm and Backlund as examples, they're always hard on the forecheck and in the guts of the game. If you look at Backlund's line exclusively, you'll see that they're constantly close together and consistently rotating and cycling the puck around, it's what makes them so effective.

There's just a ton of buzzwords being thrown around here attacking the coach. But honestly, ask yourselves this, is Sutter's system that much different from a lot of other coaches in this league? Every coach asks their players to check, lots of coaches deploy man to man defense and lots of coaches ask their players to get lots of pucks on net, this is not some unique patented system that Sutter has invented. It's pretty par for the course in today's heavy analytics/possession driven game.

For me personally, I believe Sutter's system is very much up to date. Heavy emphasis on checking which is vital if you want to be successful in the playoffs and his Dmen are very aggressive/active pinching at the blueline. The Flames are also right at the top when it comes to generating odd man rushes chances, even if they fail to convert which is more so an issue with the personnel than the system itself.

With that said, nothing about this screams of a coach being "behind" or "game passing him by." He's a smart, demanding coach and he has this team prepared every game and the games are always tight. That's really all you can ask for from a coach. It's not like this team is constantly getting blown out, they're in a lot of close games where one missed save or one goalpost has cost this team time and time again this season.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

Such a pithy and overly simplistic argument.

If you want to fling some #### at those arguing for another coaching change, provide some real damning evidence highlighting all the wonderful things that collection of coaches have gone on to achieve since getting fired by the Flames.

That'll show us.

Well they haven't achieved much, but that doesn't necessarily make them bad coaches either, that's specious reasoning. Most NHL coaches made it to the big leagues because they're quite good at what they do and are probably pretty similar in calibre as the others, some just get luckier than others when it comes to what team they get to coach for. I'm sure a Geoff Ward or Glen Gulutzan would've killed to coach a Nathan Mackinnon or a Sidney Crosby on their team. But no, Bednar and Sullivan got to instead.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

The roster was considered one of the deepest rosters on paper by almost every hockey expert that covers the NHL. It isn't the roster, it is the coach.

Much of the roster looked good on paper because Sutter coached them last season.

It wasn't that great then, it isn't that great now.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by Barnet Flame

Such a pithy and overly simplistic argument.

If you want to fling some #### at those arguing for another coaching change, provide some real damning evidence highlighting all the wonderful things that collection of coaches have gone on to achieve since getting fired by the Flames.

That'll show us.

You do understand we could replay the season 100,000 times and have a range of different outcomes, right? This is the one we got. Random variation exists.

[Flamesfan05]

This was a one line team, the replacement sucks.

Sutter is good but he is no magician.

That said he is stubborn and useless this season. Team has given up on him

[Flamesfan05]

Yes, blames the goal posts . They are the problems. Without goal posts, this team is a scoring machine. Lol

[butterfly]

OP has 12 posts in 12 years, which is...something.

How come nobody posted this after the Minnesota game? Of course if one off the shots off the posts bounced in, these threads would stay in the shadows.

[TheKiprusoffResurrection]

Fire Sutter if you must, in so long as the guy that hired him gets shown the door first. Brad Treliving is a mediocre GM, at best. He can't hire a coach to save his life. 3 playoff round victories in his 9 seasons here? Yeah, that doesn't cut it.

Axe them both and let's start fresh.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Ah, the classic CP Fire the Coach Thread. This place along with Brad Treliving are absolute coach killers. That’s 5 coaches in 9 seasons and people here are already clamoring for a 6th. Each coach gets like 1.5 seasons before posters here bring out the pitchforks. I still remember the conversations that were being had for years here before Sutter entered the equation?

Frankly, the Flames have managed to bring coaches who demand the same type of game. Play for good analytics and hope you score on those low percentage shots. News flash. Analytics are garbage and so is the style of hockey being played. What has made this stuff even worse is Sutter's propensity to play favorites with some of the weakest players in the league. Lucic shouldn't even be dressing. Lewis should get spot duty and sharing war stories with Luicic in the press box. This team should be leveraging the speed and skill they have and working to find chemistry between players, not trying to hammer that square peg into the same round hole game-after-game.

I'm really shocked that others could not see this happening. Sutter did it his first go-round in Calgary, did it in LA to the point his players publicly stated their approval of his firing. The guy is a dinosaur and isn't a fit for the game and the players in this iteration of the NHL. The Flames should put him out to pasture but they won't. They'll keep him around and the team will continue to underperform and make it more difficult to attract and retain talent. Coaches like Sutter have a shelf life and the Flames didn't bother to check that date before hiring him. He was past his expiration date long before they brought him in to replace Ward.

We’ve basically gone full circle with this endless search for a coach, it’s literally the definition of insanity. This place cried for an “elite” coach 2 years ago and they finally got their wish and now even an elite coach can make this fanbase happy. Like I’ve before, It does not matter who coaches this team, they will have their flaws and this fanbase will somehow unfairly crucify them anyway.

Sutter ain't elite. That's such a fantasy. The guy plays favorites, doesn't match lines, has terrible situational awareness, and doesn't know how to use talent worth a damn. He may be a great motivator for a very short period of time, but a guy that actually coaches and makes in game adjustments, that's ain't Sutter. Sutter may have a couple rings, but he did so by coaching teams to middle of the pack seasons and hoping they could catch fire and wear the opposition down playoff victories. Doesn't work anymore.

[Finger Cookin]

The Flames worst coach in history we've ever had is whoever our current post-honeymoon coach is at any given time.

[Nelson]

The roster as currently constructed should be able to at least make the playoffs. It is good enough.

Sutter is the problem. He relies on older, slower players too much, and that comes at the expense of younger players with speed, like Duehr. He overplays the bottom end of the roster. He makes the game unenjoyable so that the team lacks enthusiasm. I agree that he does have the team scared to make mistakes and take risks. The team is wound much too tight.

My bigger problem with the organization is the future. The team is pretty old. It is capped out next season. It does not have a full complement of picks over the next 3 years. It does not have a great prospect pool. Zary, Coronato, Wolf - that’s it. (Edit - Sorry, I’m now assuming Coronato will sign based on his recent comments, and I consider Pelletier graduated since this will have been his Calder season by the end of the season.)

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Nelson

Zary, Coronato, Wolf - that’s it. (Edit - Sorry, I’m now assuming Coronato will sign based on his recent comments, and I consider Pelletier graduated since this will have been his Calder season by the end of the season.)

I think this is a little extreme. I don't see a single game breaker in Flames' system but there are some interesting pieces that will likely play and contribute in the NHL. Poirer is exactly what is missing on the blueline. A skilled blueliner who can make plays in the offensive zone. Not great defensively, but most offensive defensemen fall into that category. I like what I've seen from Kuznestov and Solovyov. I feel both could play on the backend for the Flames soon. Up front the system is a shambles with very little to speak of. Maybe Schwindt and Klapka will turn into bottom six players. Maybe Jones will surprise in camp and vie for a position on the 4th line. Beyond that, yeah it's ugly. Flames system hasn't been this prospect poor in a long time.

[Phil Russell]

This team should have achieved much better results. It plays a dump the puck, slow perimeter game that produces shots and few goals. They play a game that very much looks like an outlier in today's NHL. Their game appears to generate some impressive advanced stats, but not many wins and little entertainment. Line management has been awful, game management is minimal, players have lost confidence, the team can't win games. There are multiple factors likely at play, but Sutter is the most central problem IMO and the factor most easily remedied.

[Nelson]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

I think this is a little extreme. I don't see a single game breaker in Flames' system but there are some interesting pieces that will likely play and contribute in the NHL. Poirer is exactly what is missing on the blueline. A skilled blueliner who can make plays in the offensive zone. Not great defensively, but most offensive defensemen fall into that category. I like what I've seen from Kuznestov and Solovyov. I feel both could play on the backend for the Flames soon. Up front the system is a shambles with very little to speak of. Maybe Schwindt and Klapka will turn into bottom six players. Maybe Jones will surprise in camp and vie for a position on the 4th line. Beyond that, yeah it's ugly. Flames system hasn't been this prospect poor in a long time.

Okay. I might give you Poirier. I’ve always been a fan of that pick. The others, meh.

[Joborule]

In the past 5 games, the Flames have scored 7 goals. Two games where one was a shutout, and the other one technically was one also.

That's on coaching.