You’re The GM

[ah123]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think most owners weigh in on the broader strategy. Meaning, I don't think a GM can trigger a re-build if the owner isn't on board.
And my understanding is that this franchise has been focused on winning now and that comes from the very top. Even when they re-built, my understanding is that they signed off on a very short re-build, not an extended one.

I can't offer proof. But I strongly believe that to be true.

There was an interview with Treliving this past summer after the Huberdeau trade. He basically said that management and ownership’s were considering a “Rangers style” rebuild (i.e., very quick retool) after Tkachuk asked for a trade. That changed when Florida came with the Weegar and Huberdeau package. So yes, I would agree that direction comes from the top

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Sec214

I don’t accept the job.

This organization is misguided as hell this past summer. If the rumoured offerings were available for Tkachuk are true from Carolina or St. Louis that would of been the way I went. Sell off what you could have keep anyone under 28 and pray you win the lottery. Connor Bedard was a sure fire cant miss superstar and if even if you didn’t get him the top 5 of this draft will all be top players in the league.

Yes and the biggest losers… The fans.

That’s the thing.

No experienced GM is going to want to touch this. If the Flames want to replace Treliving, they are going to be fishing for a mystery box and hoping for a miracle. If ownership is dictating the moves, I guess it doesn’t matter anyway.

I agree with the others that this is the most disappointing season I can remember. Even during the dark years of the mid 90s to the early 2000s, back then, there was at least some joy in rooting for the underdog. If I wasn’t a Flames fan, I would be enjoying watching this because so much about this team is unlikeable at the moment.

[WCW Nitro]

In a 32 team cap league, I think fans have to come to the realization that your favorite team is probably not winning the Cup nor will they be good consistently. The Flames issue is basically the same issue which most teams have, they didn't get bad enough to get an elite #1 C. Without one, you're probably not winning the Cup or having any kind of sustained success. And even tanking doesn't give you great odds of getting the #1 overall pick.

[saillias]

I se a lot of good opportunity for next year actually.

They're basically capped out next year. That's a GOOD thing because they are forced into fiscal discipline. They have to give a shot to guys on ELCs. No more room for Rooneys.

They have to replace the 4th line. They have Zary and Schwindt, both will have a good amount of AHL experience, will be 22 next year and still be on their ELCs. It's not impossible we have a Zary-Schwindt-Duehr 4th line next year.

They can't afford to have a good 6th D like Stetcher. Stone is UFA and might be done, Mackey is gone. As a 20 year old Poirier leads defenseman rookie scoring in the AHL. He's a left shot, will be 21 and could be paired with Tanev. He makes 835K on his ELC. That will be very attractive.

6 key players in contract years will also be playing for their last pay day.

This year had historically bad goaltending which will probably "regress" to the mean. Even if Markstrom is probably on the decline due to age, a dead cat bounce is possible or even likely. Look at what improvement to goaltending did for NJ year over year.

Coronato is likely signing soon

And then there's a few more wild cards, Kylington could come back, Wolf could potentially push out Vladar or Markstrom, and that 1st round pick could potentially be an NHLer next year. This year is getting ugly and seems to be spiraling down. That could be a blessing. This org needs a franchise player badly.

As for the GM/coach situation I think it's a Cassidy in Boston or Trotz in Wash situation where he's a good coach but they just have to move on because the room hates him. Yes they just extended him - but they extended Huberdeau for longer and more. he will win that battle

[Hockey_Ninja]

I’d honestly give up the GM role to someone waaaaaaay smarter than me. I don’t trust myself with that kind of power over an NHL team

[Major Major]

I think Sutter and Tre can both manage Murray far better than some budget guys they bring in if they cut them loose.

Can they work as a cohesive unit that focuses on player turnover, asset management, a youth movement and proactive contract extensions? I actually think they can.

[bluejays]

Murray Edwards in recent years seems to really like the corporate GM who just gets it done. Burke, a get it done, top down guy. Treliving, raised in the BP business environment and also a get it done by directive, type guy. Even Sutter could be argued he’s a get it done guy. Now, look at some other organizations where there’s more of a discussion and a “new way” of understanding there’s an honest assessment of where we are and what it takes to get there. The old ways of pushing forward as a directive are old school and backward.

[gamesaver]

As a GM, I am only signing if I can decide the team's direction within my tenure. If I am only there to execute a plan for the ownership, I am not signing. They can do the job themselves if they think they know better than me.

With that settled, I am having a good look at our scouting department. I don't buy into the stereotype you can only get top talent when you can draft high. Gaudreau is a prime example to that. You can get Pastrnak type of player late first round, you can get Kucherov type early second round and so on. It's about knowing what you are looking for, part of it is psychology too. Pasta slid so far because of the talk with GM's. They thought he was a simple guy who didn't care that much about being the best. Yet he is the guy who lost his father at a very young age, his single mother had to work 3 jobs at the same time so he could afford playing hockey... Guys like this don't mess around.

I would be targeting young talent from western Canada and as far as Europe goes, Scandinavia makes the most sense. This franchise has a great record with Śwedish players. It makes sense because the weather is similar, long nights and no sunlight, they are just more likely to fit in over some American from Florida or Harvard, even if he looks really good.

But you really need to be building through draft. It might take 2-4 seasons of missing playoffs and not looking good. But I am pretty sure most of us would trade our current situations with Ottawa without hesitation. We are one point behind them in standings, but unlike us, they have Brady Tkachuk, Stutzle, Batherson, Sanderson, Pinto... They will probably miss the playoffs, but their future is much brighter than ours. And it's not because they have signed UFAs in later parts of their career. You need to build your young core first, for those signings to make sense.

Anyone saying fans will check out if we go down that route, what does it say about this fanbase? If Jets can do it, if Sens can do it? Habs are doing it too? Why are we supposed to be a fairweather fanbase? Isn't it more likely a narrative of the ownership who doesn't want to risk on missing out on draft picks? Because they don't want to make big changes within the org itself, not just roster moves? This is a reach, but I am having a hard time finding an answer for that question. Why can't we rebuild, if other Canadian franchises with arguably even more diehard fanbase are doing just that?

[Strange Brew]

Would love to know what moves have or haven’t been made based on ownership involvement. Or what contract offers were or were not made.

Only story I am aware of is that Treliving wanted to buy out Neal with 4 years left on his deal and ownership said no.

[bluejays]

It always comes down to money. Perhaps Edwards' friends in high places really want to keep a competitive team going? None of us are owners to understand the complex relationships owners have with stakeholders, but the root of it is almost certainly money.


As for @gamesaver, the only way to truly have a high chance at a franchise player is through the draft. Gaudreau wasn't a franchise player, though we definitely lucked out on him. Drafting is always chance with some game theory involved. Some teams are better at drafting than others, but it's more than just knowing what you're looking for and psychology. Those teams that got those guys if they knew they were going to be that good, would have drafted them earlier. It's chance, and your best chance is if you draft high. Additionally you have to have the support staff and system set up to develop these guys. I don't know where the Flames have faltered, but in many ways their minor league development hasn't produced NHL level talent much. Gotta pick that up when the time is right.

[really?]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think most owners weigh in on the broader strategy. Meaning, I don't think a GM can trigger a re-build if the owner isn't on board.
And my understanding is that this franchise has been focused on winning now and that comes from the very top. Even when they re-built, my understanding is that they signed off on a very short re-build, not an extended one.

I can't offer proof. But I strongly believe that to be true.

This is quite possibly why Treliving's status is YTD at this point. If I were a GM I would be looking at this squad and advising ownership that 3 years is required to retool this team and next year might be a rough one. I wouldn't sign on unless given the latitude to move a few players and take back more perspective assets. I'd also want significant say over the coaching next year and beyond, and then a three year contract to see the vision to a point where it could be properly evaluated. I would imagine ownership is not ready for such an approach, and perhaps Treliving has an offer to continue on in his role, but it is more as an administrator than a decision maker. I wouldn't sign onto that.

As for this summer, I would honestly look at moving on from one of Lindholm or Backlund, and one of Tanev or Hanifin. The cost to resign all four of these players would be impractical after next season, and I would be looking at the potential, largely future based returns that would exist leading up to the draft this year. I would also make sure that it is made clear to Huberdeau and Kadri that they are a big part of fabric of this team and ensure that they are committed to lead as veterans and help to develop a team that likely competes in the middle of their contracts. Hopefully they understand that 7 or 8 years can be a long time if you don't plan for anything beyond next year. Additionally, a poster noted Sutter's commitment to man to man D coverage, and this is just too demanding and restrictive over an 82 game schedule. The team should be led by someone who believes in implementing a more collaborative system, be this Coach Sutter or someone else.

Finally, and hopefully this is already unofficially handled, I make sure that Coronato is signed, and welcomed into the fold. This may be required to happen on his terms, but he represents a portion of the future, and the fans and team need to see what he has to offer. He's almost certainly not a savior, but he could turn out to be a Toffoli type, with a bit more speed and handle. Could do a lot worse than that, and next year would be a good year to learn alongside a professional like Toffoli (can't believe I'm saying that given my previous thoughts on the acquisition, but I get it wrong a lot).

Moving out players like those mentioned would leave some holes, though at the same time create opportunities. The players discussed are good, but not clear 1D or 1C quality, so hopefully the summer would be a nice to move them to a team either looking for leadership into the playoffs (Buf/Det type) or a team that has identified that such players could put them over the top. It would be nice for those guys to go to good situations, but at the end of the day, you do what is best for the team.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Well he said they entertained doing just that but it didn't work out.

What exactly doesn't he get?

Or are you saying you have to make a call to sell and then sell regardless of what the offers are in order to prove you "get it"

How did Nashville and Detroit do so well at the deadline? Both were just as much in the race and neither sold their best player. They did sell good players and got great returns.

Just because Brad said they tried doesn’t mean they did have good offers out there. Could just be no desire to trade players for picks only.

[White Out 403]

So, providing a non stupid answer and a serious answer, I think this team has to ride or die with markstrom. If markstrok is providing decent goaltending, the Flames are probably first or second in the Pacific right now and having a pretty decent season. If he's providing Vezna quality goaltending the Flames are probably up there in the western conference. If he doesn't turn it around the team is fairly screwed cap wise anyways so I can't imagine there's a reasonable scenario otherwise. It really all depends on if he can get his game fixed

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

How did Nashville and Detroit do so well at the deadline? Both were just as much in the race and neither sold their best player. They did sell good players and got great returns.

Just because Brad said they tried doesn’t mean they did have good offers out there. Could just be no desire to trade players for picks only.

Or the Flames never had the goal to move the 2024 UFAs for picks, maybe they wanted controllable players or prospects.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by flambers

Or the Flames never had the goal to move the 2024 UFAs for picks, maybe they wanted controllable players or prospects.

Basically, what I'm saying. They said they tried but didn't get what they wanted. Most felt the returns for the sellers were great this trade deadline, but the Flames couldn't get anything? I doubt it, my guess is they wanted controllable roster players or NHL ready prospects. Almost all deadline deals were for picks, at least the valuable pieces were for picks. So was nothing available for the Flames or were they not willing to take on risk by trading for picks only.

Based on this season, I would trade for picks only because we can replace guys like Backlund or Toffoli through the system or with these picks whether it's drafted players or trades. IMO buying picks at the deadline and selling them in the off season is a good way to buy low sell high as some teams were trading boat loads of picks for depth players trying to make a run at the cup. Flames failed to capitalize on this. I want a GM that will sell when it's clear it's a good season to sell.

But all this could just be the owners not the GM.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Basically, what I'm saying. They said they tried but didn't get what they wanted. Most felt the returns for the sellers were great this trade deadline, but the Flames couldn't get anything? I doubt it, my guess is they wanted controllable roster players or NHL ready prospects. Almost all deadline deals were for picks, at least the valuable pieces were for picks. So was nothing available for the Flames or were they not willing to take on risk by trading for picks only.

Based on this season, I would trade for picks only because we can replace guys like Backlund or Toffoli through the system or with these picks whether it's drafted players or trades. IMO buying picks at the deadline and selling them in the off season is a good way to buy low sell high as some teams were trading boat loads of picks for depth players trying to make a run at the cup. Flames failed to capitalize on this. I want a GM that will sell when it's clear it's a good season to sell.

But all this could just be the owners not the GM.

Players with term are trickier though especially when most teams are tight to the cap. A team might want Backlund but they’d have to send back a similar contract that weakens their roster, send a cap dump which the Flames can’t absorb, or deal with cap issues in the summer. Teams will be more willing to shuffle players around in the off-season as they rejig their rosters.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Players with term are trickier though especially when most teams are tight to the cap. A team might want Backlund but they’d have to send back a similar contract that weakens their roster, send a cap dump which the Flames can’t absorb, or deal with cap issues in the summer. Teams will be more willing to shuffle players around in the off-season as they rejig their rosters.

Maybe for Backlund as he has a NTC. Toffoli? He's on pace for 33 goals and 69 points and makes just over $4 mil. They should have been able to get a 1st and some mid picks for him. Team acquiring can worry about their cap situation in the summer. Both these guys have been proven playoff guys too. There should have been a market for picks only, Brad just didn't want to take it.

[Lanny_McDonald]

First move as GM is to take Sutter out behind the Saddledome and Ol' Yeller him. We'll tell the kids that we sent him out of province to live with long lost relatives, but we know we did the right thing and put him out of hockey's misery.

Next is get Coronato signed. Get him inked and ready to start his career with the Flames. I think its doable. If not, I'm possibly looking to move him at the draft if it can help us move up. I think I get him signed though.

Next is to prepare for the draft and try to recoup as much draft capital as possible. This window may have been missed by the team's indecision prior to the trade deadline though. Teams are hesitant to trade their firsts at the draft, but going to have to try.
We need the prospects in the system. Have to look at the team long-term and try to figure out who we can live with and live without. Because of the amazing work Treliving did at negotiating long-term deals we are looking at a core of Huberdeau, Kadri, and Weegar. No one is taking those contracts on, so we're looking elsewhere to lose some money on the cap. Based on contract status Backlund, Toffoli, Lindholm, Hanifin, Tanev, Zadorov, Gilbert, and Kylington are all players I'm taking calls on. Mangiapane is another guy I'm listen to offers for. If the right packages of picks and prospects come along, all of them could be gone. Backlund and Toffoli are the guys I'm actively trying to move because of the years they just had. Try to get a 1st and as many 2nds as possible. The 2023 draft is supposed to be the best in a couple of decades and the 2024 is supposed to be relatively weak, so try and get your assets now. I suspect we've missed the window and the only guys I'm going to get interest on are Backlund and Toffoli. That wouldn't disappoint me.

The only guy I have any concern over losing is Lindholm. I'd be trying to get his name on a contract extension, so he isn't available unless something blows my hair back, but if I don't have something done before the start of the season, I'm looking at moving him for the best package I can get. Might be one of the few players I roll the dice on and see if I can recoup a monster package at the next deadline.

Next, hire a coach who gets the game and understands the game is about speed and quick transition. I want to hear candidates come in and say they use player's strengths and find ways to minimize their weaknesses. I want to hire a coach that looks at the depth chart on the team and recognizes where players should be slotting and finding players to fill those gaps rather than try and fit a dozen square pegs into one round hole. The guys that comes in and says he's looking forward to playing Huberdeau and Kadri together leave quickly and don't have their parking validated.

So I wouldn't mind going into the new season with a lineup of:

Huberdeau-Lindholm-Coronato
Dube-Kadri-Mangipane
Pelletier-Zary-Coleman
Ruzicka-Schwindt/Jones-Duehr

Hanifin-Andersson
Weegar-Kylington
Gilbert-Zadorov
Stone

Markstrom
Vlader

That's around a $76M salary cap hit, so a little room to make some improvements around the edge if needed. Final thing is to have multiple plans for action throughout the year if certain targets aren't being hit and certain players aren't achieving the production expected. Not going to be caught without a plan and not going to be holding my breath waiting to see if the team comes together. If we're not clearly in the mix by Christmas I'm looking to the future and start moving upcoming UFAs. Mediocrity will not be accepted. If we're not going to be top ten, we're going to be bottom five and get those top picks so we can become a top 10 team for years to come.

[dammage79]

100% with Lanny on this. This is the way.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Maybe for Backlund as he has a NTC. Toffoli? He's on pace for 33 goals and 69 points and makes just over $4 mil. They should have been able to get a 1st and some mid picks for him. Team acquiring can worry about their cap situation in the summer. Both these guys have been proven playoff guys too. There should have been a market for picks only, Brad just didn't want to take it.

Easy to say they can just deal with the cap in the summer but Flames had to pay a first to dump one year of Monahan's contract and next summer doesn't look much better unless the cap jumps higher than expected.

Do you think Toffoli worth more than Chychrun? Arizona was adamant on not taking back cap and took a lesser return to do so.