Ownership and Management Perspective

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

Coronato is a piece that is top-6 ready.

You have Dube that could slide into the middle, Zary in the waiting, not to mention a very likely top 10 pick (especially with those guys gone) that would be close to NHL ready.

Better futures and more cap flexibility for what I’d wager is a team that finishes close in standings to the stay the course version.

No one in the league was trading for Chychrun without money coming back. A Backlund or Toffoli trade meant a contract coming back on the books for next year. I don’t see how anyone actually wants that.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Well you said this:
The cupboards are pretty bare compared to every other team

But fair on the main point. I just think the Flames prospect pool isn't as bad as some thing. I think it was 21st from the Athletic. Their ranking is on the strength of a pretty good top 4 prospects, and they will add I think a new #1 prospect in this draft.

But yes you should either have more success or a better pipeline. Lack of success and a not great pipeline isn't where you want to me.

We agree on the overall

I think this is the key area of frustration for many of us.
I don't feel much hope for the current, near future, or slightly longer foreseeable future of this team.

It doesn't feel like there's anything to look forward to in my opinion.
But it is what it is, and no complaining will change anything.

I've maybe watched 5 full games this year and have given in to the reality that I can't force the team to become interesting to me and my expectations.
I'm more attached to CP than I am the Flames these days and just try to enjoy other sports and other things in life more, while still enjoying this community and the odd game.

I hope season ticket holders are getting their money's worth because they deserve to for the time & financial commitment.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by CGY12

And after 30+ years of rinsing and repeating, you'd think they be intelligent enough to come up with a new strategy and learn from failure. Instead they don't and continue to prioritize the hope and a prayer philosophy that'll net them hopefully some sort of profit, not understanding that the people of Calgary are intelligent hockey fans and would support a young team with a clear decisive direction, even if it was predicated around short term challenges, but with an opportunity of sustained long term future success. The mindset they seem to have really just tells me they don't understand the market their own team plays in.

The “hope and a prayer just get in and anything can happen” attitude that festers in this organization’s psyche like memories of an ex-wife was born entirely out of a fluke run that only happened because they had the best skater in the world, the best goalie in the world, an Olympic-level #1D and Darryl Sutter at the same time.

But instead of learning “best player in the world = good, multiple best players in the world = better, get more best players in the world,” the takeaway was “just get in and anything can happen.”

Such a shame.

[Kix]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You're half right. Yes, the STHs are their primary audience. But if you think STHs are 'are happy to just have a night out', then I think you are mistaken. Everyone wants the team to be successful, including STHs, and I would argue them even more so. Everyone is frustrated.

Where I think you have it wrong (along with many others on this board, and CGY12 in this thread) is that tearing it down last week isn't the only rational or sensible path. Yes, we all want to see a plan that is more cup-focused, and less 'make the playoffs' focused. But that doesn't mean that all of that change needs to happen immediately and in a panic. That change needs to be a long-term commitment, and it has to permeate into all of their decision making. That doesn't happen overnight.

I’ve had season tickets since 2003 and am seriously considering dumping them. Many of the games have been frustrating to watch. Leaving the Dome angry and always with the same issues…defensive brain farts, poor goaltending, questionable coaching decisions, no pushback, third period collapses….I could go on. Going to the game is supposed to be fun. Lately it’s been a challenge.
Ugh!

I suspect there are a lot of people questioning paying thousands to watch a goat rodeo like this season.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

No one in the league was trading for Chychrun without money coming back. A Backlund or Toffoli trade meant a contract coming back on the books for next year. I don’t see how anyone actually wants that.

Retain a bit of salary could have been another option.

[DylanScores]

Originally Posted by Kix

I’ve had season tickets since 2003 and am seriously considering dumping them. Many of the games have been frustrating to watch. Leaving the Dome angry and always with the same issues…defensive brain farts, poor goaltending, questionable coaching decisions, no pushback, third period collapses….I could go on. Going to the game is supposed to be fun. Lately it’s been a challenge.
Ugh!

I suspect there are a lot of people questioning paying thousands to watch a goat rodeo like this season.

As long as we keep paying and buying tickets, merchandise and spending our hard earned $$, the ownership doesn’t care if we are in the middle of the pack in the NHL.
The Calgary Flames is a business. They are the biggest ticket in town! As long as they build a “good enough “team , we will always come! So why put the effort?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

I don’t understand the ‘term’ piece with these players as reasons they weren’t moved. How many times have we heard Treliving say he doesn’t believe in acquiring rentals? Is he alone in the league in this thinking, or perhaps that is also attractive for other teams who are being asked to move futures/picks? Especially with reasonable cap hits, the extra term for these players is a plus.

Trade deadline is, for the most part, for rentals. Some teams might not believe in rentals, but this year there were a lot of guys that would be considered rentals (expiring contracts) moved, so I think it still holds true.

The draft and the off-season is when teams really shift into building for next year, so I think that’s where guys with term hold higher value for a lot of teams. Especially when it comes to playoff teams where they didn’t win but got a better idea of what’s missing to get them into the next round or whatever.

If there are no takers and the Flames still need to move on from guys like Toffoli or Backlund, then retaining salary for 2 months and shipping them to playoff teams for mid/late firsts is much easier to do a year from now.

I think guys with term just have a really limited market at the trade deadline unless you’re shopping them to teams that are already looking ahead to next year, in which case picks and prospects of value are harder to get.

[FlamesAddiction]

Management, likely through the direction of ownership, has one goal in mind, and that is making the playoffs to get additional revenue. They seem to believe that rightly or wrongly, the Flames fanbase isn't resilient enough to withstand a rebuild and a few consecutive years of missing the playoffs.

I personally think it's an insult to the Flames fanbase to suggest they couldn't go through that when other more fragile markets have done it. No doubt, attendance might go down somewhat, but the same thing is likely going to happen when you accept perpetual mediocrity and offer no long term hope. The current operational model isn't geared towards winning championships, it's all about hanging in there to make money and not taking risks. Their motto painted in the dressing room should be "good is good enough".

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

Coronato is a piece that is top-6 ready.

You have Dube that could slide into the middle, Zary in the waiting, not to mention a very likely top 10 pick (especially with those guys gone) that would be close to NHL ready.

Better futures and more cap flexibility for what I’d wager is a team that finishes close in standings to the stay the course version.

Unlikely. There are 9 teams already under .500. WAS, NAS, and DET have essentially thrown in the towel. More likely to make the playoffs than crack the top 10.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

I’m not pretending to know what was offered.

My point is, there will need to be cap casualties this off-season anyway. Some hard roster decisions are coming. This would have been an opportune time to get in front of those decisions, create some flexibility, and get some assets in a heck of a draft, even if they’re picks in the latter end of the first. Those will be the same picks they’re offered next year regardless.

But they said they looked at that ... guessing the prices weren't met.

At the end of the day you hope they can assess their own talent and they don't fold in the "we need to do something" stress.

Treliving has always been pretty good on the trade front, so I feel the assessment part is probably pretty solid.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Goriders

From what I saw of this team this season. Players were given multiple opportunities in numerous situations to take the bull by the horn and run with it to improve their standing.

Outside of Toffoli, Tanev, Backlund, Dube, Pelletier, Duehr, Gilbert they pretty much all shot the bed.

Lindholm, Anderson, Lewis and Zadorov also have had good seasons and showed up each game.

But Huberdeau, Mangiapane, Markstrom, Vladar, Hanifin, Kadri, Ruzika, Weegar, Coleman, Lucic should all buy big mirrors in the offseason and spend a lot of time looking into them. You’re getting paid millions of dollars to play hockey. The people that are paying you want production in return. Not excuses.

The fans do too.

I'd remove Vladar, Ruzikcka, and Lucic ... they're all bottom roster players.

Coleman? Production where you want it to be and 1/3 of the best play driving line in hockey.

Hanifin has been solid this season.

Huberdeau and Markstrom for sure. Mangiapane and Kadri in the next tier.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I give the Flames owner ship group credit as it evolves. Since we got the cap this group has said spend to the cap, but we want a competitive team that competes for a playoff spot. that's the bar.

I assume that the Flames ownership doesn't want tear downs and long rebuilds. We've seen that the Calgary fan base is incredibly fickle. A lot of people will say, yeah I'm a draft and trade addict, tear down and rebuild. But the fact is that as much as we deny it, this isn't a elite fanbase. And that's with no insult.

The Owners figure that if we go with a mega youth movement and it struggles that attendance in this city will drop like a stone.

So that floats at the back of their minds.

We also have to remember that the Flames are hopeful for that new building that will increase and stabalize their revenue stream. Without the playoff revenue, this isn't exactly a massively profitable franchise, it gets by. So that playoff revenue is hugely important.

So the question is, where is the Flames ownership's ire going to settle on at the end of the year. These aren't dumb owners, and they're certainly not out of touch with what's going on.

They can look at the stone like drop in the goaltending. The low shooting percentage, and ask the question is it the core group of players? Is it the coaches, is it the GM that messed this up.

On paper at the start of the year, Treliving came out of an off season looking like the golden boy.

The question when the serious questions is what the hell happened here? Was Brad stupid? Are we going to resign him. Can we get a new GM that can run a quick competitive reset of the core?

We know the owners love Sutter, they always have local farm boy folk hero and hard ass coach done good. But I doubt they're going to make him a GM again. They're not dumb.

If they decide not to resign Tre, then the interview question is what's the quickest reset here, who do we absolutely keep and who do we move on because the goal is the playoffs and that revenue in the playoffs.

I do think we're going to see an active off season on the edges of this team.
I do think that they won't resign Tre and the GM that they hire will have a very specific goal. Competitive, playoffs. no teardown and here's your budget.

What is a elite fanbase?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'd remove Vladar, Ruzikcka, and Lucic ... they're all bottom roster players.

Coleman? Production where you want it to be and 1/3 of the best play driving line in hockey.

Hanifin has been solid this season.

Huberdeau and Markstrom for sure. Mangiapane and Kadri in the next tier.

Agree with most of this assessment but I would put Mangiapane in with Markstrom and Huberdeau.

I think he has been at best....underwhelming.

Hopefully just a product of getting the big payday and then trying to do more than what he was signed to do which usually results in a poor performance.

He needs to be much much better than he has offensively.

[cannon7]

Flames fans get the franchise they deserve.

We'll "wait and see" into oblivion. We give relieved high marks for a meaningless depth trade. We will bend over backwards to absolve the braintrust that constructed the team and mismanaged its assets. And we'll keep buying tickets and like it.

I'm used to it by now. About 32 years of this crap. It's a disease that appears to infect all Canadian franchises to some degree. Just wish it weren't so. Wish this moldy mold could once and for all be broken.

[Roof-Daddy]

I've said a few times, I would be wary of making too many big changes. Just minor tweaks and come back with mostly the same group next season. They just had huge turnover and haven't found a real groove this season.

They are also snake bit offensively.

Hopefully Markstrom bounces back, that alone would put this team back in contention for the division title.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by chedder

My criticism wasn't that at all. Vladar was playing well going into the all-star break. He should have been given the leash to see if it could continue right after. Instead Markstrom is given the net back. Timing means something and playing the guy who has the confidence when he has it is a better plan than hoping the other guy gets it back.

Going into the ASG Vladar had a winning streak but had been sub. 900 in most of those games. Markstrom was actually playing about the same but the team couldn’t score in front of him for some reason.

Since ASG, it’s been win and you’re in, like people actually wanted.

Post ASG, Markstrom lost the first game after the ASG in OT. Vladar played the second game after the ASG, and lost to Detroit with an .882 save%, so Sutter went back to Markstrom, who beat Buffalo and had a 9.13. So Markstrom got the net back and lost on OT to Ottawa. Vladar then got his chance again and lost (to Detroit again) with a 7.62. Markstrom won the next game against the Rangers, then lost to the Flyers. Vladar got the win against the Yotes with a .786 save %. So Sutter started him again against Vegas (against convention wisdom because it was BTB) and he lost. Markstrom then loses to the Avs, Vladar started against Boston and got yanked (and Markstrom was good in relief) and Markstrom got the start against the Leafs (and was good but lost).

Vladar has just not earned the net after the ASG. He’s been outperformed by Markstrom, sad as that is.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

Retain a bit of salary could have been another option.

Why the hell would we trade away Backlund or Toffoli and retain? That’s an absurd proposition.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Bingo

But they said they looked at that ... guessing the prices weren't met.

At the end of the day you hope they can assess their own talent and they don't fold in the "we need to do something" stress.

Treliving has always been pretty good on the trade front, so I feel the assessment part is probably pretty solid.

You’d hope. Tre has generally done well in trades yes.

With Friedman’s latest to suggest that the flames had no real interest in moving Backlund/Lindholm, and are instead looking at extending them this summer, I have big reservations about their direction right now.

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

Why the hell would we trade away Backlund or Toffoli and retain? That’s an absurd proposition.

It’s not really that absurd. If it gets you the assets you covet then you’d have to consider doing it.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by howard_the_duck

You’d hope. Tre has generally done well in trades yes.

With Friedman’s latest to suggest that the flames had no real interest in moving Backlund/Lindholm, and are instead looking at extending them this summer, I have big reservations about their direction right now.

I’m fine with keeping both if they want to extend. Finding a second and third line C can take forever. Ideally you at least keep Lindholm as he has shown progression every year except this one. You cannot just trade these guys for the sake of trading, it took forever for the Flames to acquire some centre depth. A full rebuild is not in the cards, so you try and get them on reasonable contracts or trade them next year if no agreement is made.