Discussion: Do the Flames have a problem promoting young players?

[Hot_Flatus]

Does the organization have a problem promoting players? Hard to say. They haven't exactly been bursting at the seams with talent ready to step in so that is the biggest part of the problem.

At times they can seem to block players pathways by making signings like Kevin Rooney, who add next to nothing to the team. On the other hand just look at players like Ruzicka, Dube, Mangiapane, Andersson, Kylington (toss Gaudreau and Tkachuk in there too).

There's at least 7 high impact players that have been "promoted" through the system in fairly recent memory and we still have Wolf, Pelletier and Zary as players that may come through as early as this season as well.

Maybe there's a bit of a trust issue when it comes to getting role players into the trenches, but I see little to no hesitancy to bring in skilled players when they're ready. Phillips may be an outlier, but I think everyone can agree he's more than likely not a top 6 stalwart in the making.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Bingo

But is Valimaki it?

Or did I miss some names - that is a player that wasn't promoted here that should have been that have gone on to other organizations and flourished?

Because as I said ... if there isn't a list then there really isn't a case for the organization not promoting players is there?

Exactly. There are so many decisions a GM has to make that are win some lose some type decisions. As long as you are not making decision to let players go that are franchise altering players, you are ok.

Valimaki may be better than Mackey but is he better than Stone? If not, he is not beating out the other 5.

So, we lost Kulak or Byron but we also promoted Mangiapane, Andersson, Kylington, Ruzicka, Dube all drafted outside the first round, and all played many games in the AHL. The guys we are keeping have much better career numbers than the guys we lost.

Really Sam Bennett might be the only player we traded away that we messed up on in the last 6-8 years. At least a player that really is having a true impact on his current team.

[Macho0978]

There is also the other factor. Those who are always saying promote every player who is playing well in the AHL might miss other opportunities.

Promote Pelletier, Phillips, Valmaki and Mackey and let the kids play approach could lead to GM's that let UFA's like Zadorov walk. Last time I looked he's better than Valimaki too and playing as good as anyone on the team.

I'd hate to lose him for nothing because we were so worried about losing Valimaki for nothing

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

I mean, if a little positive reinforcement has caused him to become a pretty solid player in Arizona - why didn't we do that?

We don't know what was or was not done. But I suspect it wouldn't have mattered either way. Valimaki needed a fresh start. It happens, there is pretty much nothing else to be done about it, and it's no one's fault.


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[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

But is Valimaki it?

Or did I miss some names - that is a player that wasn't promoted here that should have been that have gone on to other organizations and flourished?

Because as I said ... if there isn't a list then there really isn't a case for the organization not promoting players is there?

Jiri's earlier point on Valimaki is a good one. Let's give it some time before we declare him some big miss. I'm not convinced he's an NHLer. He was picked up by an expansion quality team as a flyer. And for every Valimaki there are players that never amounted to anything but this organization gave them every opportunity. Joni Ortio anyone?

Frankly both lists seem pretty short. The Flames may not be great at drafting and development, IDK. But not giving good players a chance? I need more evidence than a red hot Matthew Phillips.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Phillips in the only player in the AHL that is tearing it up and it doesn't make sense at his age he hasn't got a crack...

I think it makes sense. Phillips hasn't been the singularly dominant player in the AHL in previous seasons that he is right now; a call-up was never obvious. Last year the team was basically healthy from wire-to-wire, and so far this is what is happening now. Phillips won't be recalled unless there is an injury in the top nine. If that doesn't happen, then maybe he gets added to the roster after the TD.


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[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Jiri's earlier point on Valimaki is a good one. Let's give it some time before we declare him some big miss. I'm not convinced he's an NHLer. He was picked up by an expansion quality team as a flyer. And for every Valimaki there are players that never amounted to anything but this organization gave them every opportunity. Joni Ortio anyone?

Frankly both lists seem pretty short. The Flames may not be great at drafting and development, IDK. But not giving good players a chance? I need more evidence than a red hot Matthew Phillips.

Absolutely ... Valimaki is far from a done deal as an NHLer.

As I said earlier it's the last of picks in 2017-2019 that would have had players in the system that would be busting the door down now if developed properly.

They're not here ... so it's the 2019 and 2020 firsts that are looking good, but no where near a hot house example.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

I think it makes sense. Phillips hasn't been the singularly dominant player in the AHL in previous seasons that he is right now; a call-up was never obvious. Last year the team was basically healthy from wire-to-wire, and so far this is what is happening now. Phillips won't be recalled unless there is an injury in the top nine. If that doesn't happen, then maybe he gets added to the roster after the TD.


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I agree and like Ruzicka you need him to get the call for a certain role. Injuries play a big part of who gets called. Ritchie gets hurt Phillips isn't getting the call, especially now that Ruzicka has filled out the top 9.

IMO when healthy it's Ruzicka vs Phillips and hard to argue they didn't pick the right guy. Maybe Dube is an option too or demote Dube to the 4th line and bench Lewis or Rooney but hard to say if Phillips is better than Dube and Dube is a regular on the PK so even though he isn't scoring he brings value in other roles.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

Ruzicka leads the Flames in PPG. Lots wanted him earlier but maybe being patient is why he is tearing it up for us.



Phillips in the only player in the AHL that is tearing it up and it doesn't make sense at his age he hasn't got a crack.



Zary, Wolf and Pelletier are still very young.

Many also felt he deserved more looks last year. Sutter was patient and we'll never know if he would have had the same output this year, last year, but we do know he looks great this year for a young player. So, it's up to people if they want to go with what's happening now and give Sutter sine credit or speculate instead.

[Kipper_3434]

Not as big a problem as the pro scouting's swing and miss pro scouting. It's the Pitlick's and Rooney's that drive a fan crazy. James Neal and Brouwer gave hope to the foolish but most of the attentive fan base knew these deals were bad... so now we just have Lucic and Rooney basically blocking any cap or roster space. Hard to call up players when you are always up against the cap.
That being said, it's been awhile since we had so many forward prospects that look ready to try the NHL. Pretty exciting honestly.

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

Not as big a problem as the pro scouting's swing and miss pro scouting. It's the Pitlick's and Rooney's that drive a fan crazy. James Neal and Brouwer gave hope to the foolish but most of the attentive fan base knew these deals were bad... so now we just have Lucic and Rooney basically blocking any cap or roster space. Hard to call up players when you are always up against the cap.
That being said, it's been awhile since we had so many forward prospects that look ready to try the NHL. Pretty exciting honestly.

I wasn't crazy about Brower but I'll admit all day that I was super pumped when the Flames signed Neal. I thought we got a legitimate star sniper winger.

[Backstop]

Originally Posted by activeStick

I wasn't crazy about Brower but I'll admit all day that I was super pumped when the Flames signed Neal. I thought we got a legitimate star sniper winger.

Same here but when we picked up Jagr, I knew he wasnt going to be a game breaker at that stage but I also didn't expect to see him struggle to make it from one end to the other, it was all a bit depressing in the end really.

[TheSquatch]

Tons of people, analysts, GMs, etc have spoken of the "Red Wings" model, where you have all this talent in the AHL, NHL ready guys, and they're really seasoned, and when you call them up, boom, no problem, they're ready.

The difference here is that the talent level is super mediocre mostly because the Flames draft mid-pack year after year because they make the playoffs or come close, year after year. So it's a cycle of mediocrity. It's less about philosophy and more about what you actually have on the farm.

Would we all like to see a few more young guys get a shot? Yes. But we need to remember the Sven Baertschi's and the Rob Shremps and the million other "next guy" guys that haven't cut it in the league.

I think it's obvious that Sutter would take a team of Ruzickas over a team of Phillips. And I think there's some merit in discussing whether this team (or this coach) is driving down desire for young players to sign here.

[DJones]

Valimaki got chances, never earned it

Phillips is 24 and would be the smallest kid in the league.

Otherwise who has been blocked? I have zero doubts Pelletier and Zary will get fair shots.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

Tons of people, analysts, GMs, etc have spoken of the "Red Wings" model, where you have all this talent in the AHL, NHL ready guys, and they're really seasoned, and when you call them up, boom, no problem, they're ready.

The difference here is that the talent level is super mediocre mostly because the Flames draft mid-pack year after year because they make the playoffs or come close, year after year. So it's a cycle of mediocrity. It's less about philosophy and more about what you actually have on the farm.

Would we all like to see a few more young guys get a shot? Yes. But we need to remember the Sven Baertschi's and the Rob Shremps and the million other "next guy" guys that haven't cut it in the league.

I think it's obvious that Sutter would take a team of Ruzickas over a team of Phillips. And I think there's some merit in discussing whether this team (or this coach) is driving down desire for young players to sign here.

It's funny, because Holloway is probably the most obviously rushed player in the entire league right now. 3 points and -6 in 22 games for the Oilers.

[GranteedEV]

Yes, the Flames have a problem promoting young players. Even some of our so-called success stories - Mangiapane, Kylington, Ruzicka, - are unlikely to ever play #1 PP for us. Opportunities are not earned, they're arbitrarily selected.

Sam Bennett was another totally mishandled young player. Even Dougie Hamilton was never used to his full potential here. And unlike some here, I don't think it's totally independant of Adam Fox' decision to look elsewhere - regardless of his desire to be a Ranger...

For whatever reason the Flames organizations plays favourites not based on merit but based on their gut feeling. And they load up on overpriced, underwhelming veterans.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Dougie Hamilton had career years here not sure how he wasn't utilized.

Sam Bennett never showed us much just small sample size of what he can do. Inconsistent player.

[Vedder]

Valimaki’s big shot was last training camp. He’s in the lineup on opening night and then simply got outplayed by his competition. He had a bad camp this year and the rest is history (although I probably would have kept him over Mackey simply due to age and upside).

The irony in using Valimaki as an example of the topic at hand is that his roster spot was taken by Oliver Kylington, a promoted young player with similar NHL experience at the start of last season. He had a lot qualities that wouldn’t make him the most prototypical Sutter player either, but he had a great season with increasing responsibility.

Ultimately he might turn into something, but outside of an Arizona team with zero expectations I don’t think he will find a lot of coaches in the league that use long leashes and positive reinforcement as their main motivating techniques.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Dougie Hamilton had career years here not sure how he wasn't utilized.

Sam Bennett never showed us much just small sample size of what he can do. Inconsistent player.

Christ sake he made me thank one of your posts!

[Vedder]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Yes, the Flames have a problem promoting young players. Even some of our so-called success stories - Mangiapane, Kylington, Ruzicka, - are unlikely to ever play #1 PP for us. Opportunities are not earned, they're arbitrarily selected.

Sam Bennett was another totally mishandled young player. Even Dougie Hamilton was never used to his full potential here. And unlike some here, I don't think it's totally independant of Adam Fox' decision to look elsewhere - regardless of his desire to be a Ranger...

For whatever reason the Flames organizations plays favourites not based on merit but based on their gut feeling. And they load up on overpriced, underwhelming veterans.

Literally all three of those players you mentioned have been used on PP1 in the last year at different times. Maybe not regularly because they’re not as good as the other options?

And basically everything that has ever been reported about Adam Fox is that he would never play here and would explore specific markets out east. Not just a Calgarypuck thing.